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Customer request VDA 6.3 as well as TS 16949
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Customer request VDA 6.3 as well as TS 16949
Customer request VDA 6.3 as well as TS 16949
Customer request VDA 6.3 as well as TS 16949
Customer request VDA 6.3 as well as TS 16949
Customer request VDA 6.3 as well as TS 16949
Customer request VDA 6.3 as well as TS 16949
Customer request VDA 6.3 as well as TS 16949
Customer request VDA 6.3 as well as TS 16949
Customer request VDA 6.3 as well as TS 16949
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Customer request VDA 6.3 as well as TS 16949 - Page 2


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customer requirements, german, german car manufacturer, vda 6.3 - process audit, ts 16949 - automotive quality system standard
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  Post Number #9  
Old 20th June 2014, 12:46 PM
Helmut Jilling

 
 
Total Posts: 4,366
Re: Customer request VDA 6.3 as well as TS 16949

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by lk2012 View Post

Is your customer insisting on VDA in the US a German OEM? German OEM's (Continental, VW group, BMW group, Siemens, Bosch...) usually insist on each and every one of their sites following VDA.
My client is a tier2 American plant, with a German parent company. Their customer is also a tier2 American division with a German parent company. The OE customers in this story are all OE's - all the Detroit and German OE's.

I just did an onsite visit with them to review this issue, and have a clearer understanding. They were not being asked to certify to VDA (which would not make sense), but rather, the customer performed a customer audit using VDA 6.3. That makes more sense.

However, the customer sprung this on my client. They are certified to TS-16949, in good standing, with pretty good performance. certainly above average. The customer just walked in, took out VDA 6.3, and starting firing questions!

NOTE: If you are a supply chain auditor, and this is your tactic, IT IS WRONG! Your supplier is not certified to VDA. They were not asked to review this audit scheme. You don't just spring it on them, and then rake them over the coals. You might as well audit them to the Russian Nuclear Standards...! They can't be held liable for something they have not even implemented.

So, now, instead of us doing a planned review of VDA 6.3, identifying items to add to the QMS, and doing an orderly implementation, we are doing it backwards, via corrective actions!

This is the wrong approach, counter=productive, disruptive and costly. If you want your suppliers to implement things, inform them, and give them time to implement it in an orderly manner. You are violating the very intent of ISO/TS with this approach!
Thank You to Helmut Jilling for your informative Post and/or Attachment!

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  Post Number #10  
Old 21st June 2014, 12:02 AM
Howard Atkins's Avatar
Howard Atkins

 
 
Total Posts: 2,960
Re: Customer request VDA 6.3 as well as TS 16949

To be clear

VDA 6.3 is not a certifiable standard

It is a process audit as required by TS in 8.2.2.2 Manufacturing process audit , which is defined in a better way than the TS standard.

Just as the US companies have mandated LPAs, German companies are mandating VDA 6.3

The next stage will be mandating VDA 6.5 for TS 8.2.2.3 Product audit as this is also not clear from the standard.
Thank You to Howard Atkins for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
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  Post Number #11  
Old 21st June 2014, 07:30 AM
Helmut Jilling

 
 
Total Posts: 4,366
Re: Customer request VDA 6.3 as well as TS 16949

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Howard Atkins View Post

To be clear

VDA 6.3 is not a certifiable standard

It is a process audit as required by TS in 8.2.2.2 Manufacturing process audit , which is defined in a better way than the TS standard.

Just as the US companies have mandated LPAs, German companies are mandating VDA 6.3

The next stage will be mandating VDA 6.5 for TS 8.2.2.3 Product audit as this is also not clear from the standard.
That is what I am finding. But they did not give my client any direction on this. They just came in and performed a customer VDA audit without any prior direction to determine that these additional requirements were implemented. The client was given months to implement TS, and they did a good job at that. But there was no window on VDA. It is wrong to ambush their suppliers without some advance planning.

The ultimate was the comment that a "lot of our supplier are angry about this..." Really? Ya think?
Thanks to Helmut Jilling for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  Post Number #12  
Old 21st June 2014, 10:43 AM
Howard Atkins's Avatar
Howard Atkins

 
 
Total Posts: 2,960
Re: Customer request VDA 6.3 as well as TS 16949

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Helmut Jilling View Post

That is what I am finding. But they did not give my client any direction on this. They just came in and performed a customer VDA audit without any prior direction to determine that these additional requirements were implemented. The client was given months to implement TS, and they did a good job at that. But there was no window on VDA. It is wrong to ambush their suppliers without some advance planning.

The ultimate was the comment that a "lot of our supplier are angry about this..." Really? Ya think?
What additional requirements that are not in TS?

The client was given months to implement TS, and they did a good job at that.

By whom?
Was there no reference in any of the quotation documents or CSRs about this?
Was it really a surprise or just ignored?
  Post Number #13  
Old 21st June 2014, 02:49 PM
Helmut Jilling

 
 
Total Posts: 4,366
Re: Customer request VDA 6.3 as well as TS 16949

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Howard Atkins View Post

What additional requirements that are not in TS?

The client was given months to implement TS, and they did a good job at that.

By whom?
Was there no reference in any of the quotation documents or CSRs about this?
Was it really a surprise or just ignored?
As far as I know it was a surprise. The customer gave my client 9 months to implement their TS system, and it was successful. Obviously, TS does not express any requirements for VDA 6.3.

There have been many customer visits, with no mention of doing a VDA audit. This seems to be a relatively new initiative from their customer. But, my complaint is this is a big expectation, and the customer should have given some months notice they were taking it up a notch.

Not how customer - supplier relationships should be done...
  Post Number #14  
Old 29th July 2016, 03:42 AM
maggylu168

 
 
Total Posts: 19
Re: Customer request VDA 6.3 as well as TS 16949

The same problem happened in Asia. A good VDA 6.3 evaluation is not only expertise on the requirements but also professional on the processes to be audited. Most cases are the auditors has trouble converting the thinking based on the assembly line of car plant to apply to different industries. Less respect from single perspective viewpoint without listening bothers suppliers much.
  Post Number #15  
Old 25th August 2016, 06:12 AM
michajel86

 
 
Total Posts: 15
Re: Customer request VDA 6.3 as well as TS 16949

Maggylu and others, this is exactly what happens if you ignore CSR or you are blind during new business feasibility study just due to vision of new bussiness .
Typicaly in companies that have no respect to carefully read the special customer requirements as quality manuals, agreements .Just for your information , each company that is producing parts for VW - for final customer (doesnt matter if tier 1 ,2,3 ,x = whole supply chain)have to follow formelQ requiremets where you can find process auditing as well .In case that there is no agreement (Quality manual/ agreement) , no CSR , you do not have to accept auditor request for auditing ,but this is usually not happening .
  Post Number #16  
Old 28th August 2016, 09:52 PM
maggylu168

 
 
Total Posts: 19
Re: Customer request VDA 6.3 as well as TS 16949

Hi Michajel86,
It seems you have an assumption that suppliers don't read CSR or any agreements before being audited. The truth is electronics are quite new to OEMs. Some auditors just insist following some rules without thinking the reasons or purpose behind the words. I take the following examples.

Example 1: Lock the incoming quarantined products with keys.
For electronics industry, the incoming products are managed in a controlled room. We marked 5 square meters with red line for deviation. The reasons we don't need another space with doors and locks are:
a. The entrance to the room has authorization limit.
b. All products are monitoring and gating with IT system.
c. Electronics products are quite small and don't need to have another space for failures.
By this way, we think it's enough for preventing people from wrongly used.
However, it is not accepted by the auditors.

Example 2: Box cutters are totally forbidden in the production line.
The auditor is quite mad when seeing operators use box cutter to open the boxes. He said the cutters have risk damaging products inside boxes and operators could hurt themselves as well. The thing is we have cushion on top of the products for protection and operators are not kids and well-trained already.

So may I have your comments for the above requirements during VDA 6.3 audit?
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