Ethical Aspects while being Consultant and Certifier within same Organization.

R

Rufat

Hello Colleagues, :bigwave:

Recently I had a great discussion regarding potential ethical aspects while being Consultant and Certifier within one organization.

Will appreciate it if someone could explain in details: Why ISO consulting company cannot be registrar and vice versa?
In 10019 it states : 4.3 Ethical considerations:
c) maintain independence from quality management system certification/registration or accreditation bodies,
d) maintain impartiality in the organization's selection of certification/registration bodies, …
then why can't company has two separate and independent from each other departments: consulting – to advise company how to get certified and certifier – to certify (like holding I would say)? Are there any accreditation rules that prohibit this?

Thanks in advance!
 
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Jim Wynne

Leader
Admin
Hello Colleagues, :bigwave:

Recently I had a grate discussion regarding potential ethical aspects while being Consultant and Certifier within one organization.

Will appreciate it if someone could explain in details: Why ISO consulting company cannot be registrar and vice versa?
In 10019 it states : 4.3 Ethical considerations:
c) maintain independence from quality management system certification/registration or accreditation bodies,
d) maintain impartiality in the organization's selection of certification/registration bodies, ?
then why can't company has two separate and independent from each other departments: consulting ? to advise company how to get certified and certifier ? to certify (like holding I would say)? Are there any accreditation rules that prohibit this?

Thanks in advance!
How can it be assured that the two separarate divisions are independent of one another when the money from each goes into the same pot?
 
R

Rufat

How can it be assured that the two separarate divisions are independent of one another when the money from each goes into the same pot?

I understand the concern but....is it states somewhere you should prove this? I mean, there are different people/specialists working in different departrments within one organization with a fixed salary... Can you please advise any standards/guidelines etc. I can refer to?
 
N

nicolene

I understand the concern but....is it states somewhere you should prove this? I mean, there are different people/specialists working in different departrments within one organization with a fixed salary... Can you please advise any standards/guidelines etc. I can refer to?


As far as my knowledge (the little I have :lol:), there is no requirement apart from what you already mentioned.

You cannot prove that the people working in different departments have not had contact with each other re: consulting/certifying, but apart from that you would not want it to seem biased.

It makes sense that a company would seek to protect their customer's interest, and if one company consults/certifies I would be very wary of their certification.
 
R

Rufat

As far as my knowledge (the little I have :lol:), there is no requirement apart from what you already mentioned.

You cannot prove that the people working in different departments have not had contact with each other re: consulting/certifying, but apart from that you would not want it to seem biased.

It makes sense that a company would seek to protect their customer's interest, and if one company consults/certifies I would be very wary of their certification.

:confused:
OK then what are the underlined that registrars usually perform:

Awareness training
Auditor training
Pre-certification audits
Certification audits
Surveillance audits
Re-Certifications

In addition there are some independent auditors that serve one or more registrars that also provide consulting services... I would appreciate if anyone can direct me to the any standards or guidelines where it clearly states/or logically make sense that consulting and certification can not exist within one organization.
 

Wes Bucey

Prophet of Profit
In my thinking, an organization faces an almost insurmountable "appearance" of conflict of interest when it purports to consult with a client on "how" to do something and then turns around and "certifies" that same client meets an International Standard on the topic it consulted about.

A poor, but apt, analogy would be for a law firm to defend a client and then have a judge who received income from that law firm declare the client innocent. Sometimes the conflict is merely friendship or acquaintanceship with other attorneys in the firm who are NOT actively working on the client's defense.

Universities purport to teach students in the professions, but in the USA, states and local governments have independent licensing and registration boards which certify whether the graduate can actually practice as such professional, NOT the university.

All this is not to say an organization may not do BOTH consulting and certifying, just not both for the same client.

Think of the oft-quoted reason Julius Caesar gave for divorcing his wife, Pompeia, "Caesar's wife must be above suspicion."
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Leader
Admin
... I would appreciate if anyone can direct me to the any standards or guidelines where it clearly states/or logically make sense that consulting and certification can not exist within one organization.
The standard in question is ISO 17021. In several sections of the standard it talks about the potential threat to impartiality (ie obvious) conflict of interest. While there are different opinions on the subject, my professional judgement is that you CAN have the same organization performing certification and consulting services. What you CAN'T have is the same organization performing in both roles to the same client/system.
 
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