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18001 migration for September 2021

Graciel

Involved In Discussions
#1
Hello
The company I work for, had decided to the external audit for 18001 to 45001 migration, on August (end of August). The ISO gave until september 30th to bed certified on ISO 45001.
The internal audits (which are some employees of the company) didn't receive the ISO 45001 course yet.
They're talking about giving them a workshop, I actually didn't understand what they mean. What they need is the course related to this standard.
I think they're very confused about the risks of this planning they created.
What would be your thoughts?
Thank you.
 
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Randy

Super Moderator
#2
Hello
The company I work for, had decided to the external audit for 18001 to 45001 migration, on August (end of August). The ISO gave until september 30th to bed certified on ISO 45001.
The internal audits (which are some employees of the company) didn't receive the ISO 45001 course yet.
They're talking about giving them a workshop, I actually didn't understand what they mean. What they need is the course related to this standard.
I think they're very confused about the risks of this planning they created.
What would be your thoughts?
Thank you.
What course are you talking about and where's the requirement for such a course?

Also if you're waiting until the end of August to do the Migration you're waiting too late, it's a horribly poor decision, and you're setting yourself up for failure (it's Migration, not Transition). If something happens in the form of nonconformity you will not have sufficient time to do corrective action, especially if it's a Major nonconformity, you'll lose your certification and more likely than not you'll have to go through a complete system certification from scratch. Whoever is giving your leadership guidance on the scheduling of your Migration, kick them out of the building today!

Your certification body should have told you all of this already, no if's, and's or but's, you should have been told. I've already lead 3 Migration audits this year, I'm doing another in 2 weeks, and from the looks of it probably another hand full by the end of July and nobody, but nobody is dragging around putting it off until late August or even early August. This is all I do, I don't consult, I don't work for any plant, factory, or anybody making anything, I just do certification audits and that's all. Waiting until late August isn't even enough time for the ink to dry on the report much less jump through all the hoops to get a certificate..........Good luck
 
Last edited:

Randy

Super Moderator
#4
I'm talking about internal auditor course based on ISO 45001.
And that requirement for an internal auditing course comes from?

I understand the desire, but if you've already got qualified and competent auditors, especially for 18001 the expense of a formal lead course may not be needed. There are some differences in the 2 standards but you might be able to do that yourself.
 

Graciel

Involved In Discussions
#5
And that requirement for an internal auditing course comes from?

I understand the desire, but if you've already got qualified and competent auditors, especially for 18001 the expense of a formal lead course may not be needed. There are some differences in the 2 standards but you might be able to do that yourself.
How can we show their understanding of what changed from 18001 to 45001?
 

Graciel

Involved In Discussions
#6
What course are you talking about and where's the requirement for such a course?

Also if you're waiting until the end of August to do the Migration you're waiting too late, it's a horribly poor decision, and you're setting yourself up for failure (it's Migration, not Transition). If something happens in the form of nonconformity you will not have sufficient time to do corrective action, especially if it's a Major nonconformity, you'll lose your certification and more likely than not you'll have to go through a complete system certification from scratch. Whoever is giving your leadership guidance on the scheduling of your Migration, kick them out of the building today!

Your certification body should have told you all of this already, no if's, and's or but's, you should have been told. I've already lead 3 Migration audits this year, I'm doing another in 2 weeks, and from the looks of it probably another hand full by the end of July and nobody, but nobody is dragging around putting it off until late August or even early August. This is all I do, I don't consult, I don't work for any plant, factory, or anybody making anything, I just do certification audits and that's all. Waiting until late August isn't even enough time for the ink to dry on the report much less jump through all the hoops to get a certificate..........Good luck
I said this to my manager, he said that he doesn't care about the risk of losing certificate, he would just explain to the customer. Also, I just found out today that they had worked with a consultant and I called this guy and he told me that he always worked with the company like this. They hope to do a better internal audit and pass on external audit.
I just started at this company but I am really worried about my reputation as a professional since they are giving me this bad scenery.
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#7
That's understandable, it's much better to start over from the beginning that to prevent the loss of the original....Or is it?

I'm going to provide, in totally general terms, what your consultant isn't or can't, starting with.... Everything costs money. Please remember, everything is in very general terms.

1st - cost............. Lets put the day rate of an audit @ $2000 per day (we'll made it costs inclusive so it's not unrealistic)

2nd - Now all accredited Certification Bodies are required to apply a document (IAF MD-5) and it's guidance when determining audit duration (I'd almost bet your consultant doesn't know this) the audit duration requirements for Health & Safety audits are set forth in Annex C and are established by Effective Employee count and Risk............ Not knowing your circumstances or anything else I'll use a company with MEDIUM Risk @ 276-425 employees for use here. The "Total" audit duration for an initial certification (beginning to end) is set at 11 days (like I said, every accredited CB has to use the exact same chart, every single one). So now we have a starting point of 11 total audit days to get a "NEW" certificate for ISO 45001:2018 giving us a basic cost of $22,000 not counting other fees, costs, etc........... $22,000

3rd - OK moving forward, you've decided to do the MIGRATION during an annual surveillance audit, the MIGRATION rules require extra time be applied to the original audit duration (we'll use 1 day in this case). Now IAF MD-5 is again applied and it requires that annual surveillance audits be set at 1/3rd of the duration of the original "Total" duration in this case it would be 1/3rd of 11 days or 11 x 0.33 which equals 3.36 days (audit days must be in 1/2 day increments to the closest 1/2 day so now we have a 3.5 day annual audit. The 3.5 day annual audit, plus the 1 day MIGRATION comes to 4.5 days. Simple math here 4.5 days x $2,000 = $9,000

4th - Your certificate expires and once they expire OHSAS 18001 certificates vaporize, they no longer exist, they disappear and can't be extended....POOF! So now you've got to start absolutely and totally over from scratch.......... $22,000 minimum, not counting other neat fees and expenses (and they will happen) and instead of only the $9,000 MIGRATION expense you now have $9,000 + $22,000 = $31,000.... MINIMUM!

Very few consultant's that I've run into have any understanding of IAF MD-5 DETERMINATION OF AUDIT TIME OF QUALITY, ENVIRONMENTAL, AND
OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH & SAFETY MANAGEMENT SYSTEMS; IAF MD-22 APPLICATION OF ISO/IEC 17021-1 FOR THE CERTIFICATION OF OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH AND SAFETY MANAGEMENT SYSTEMS (OH&SMS); ISO 17021 CONFORMITY ASSASSMENT - REQUIREMENTS FOR BODIES PROVIDING AUDIT AND CERTIFICATION OF MANAGEMENT SYSTEMS
, or anything else related the the ACCREDITED certification process.

You can get you own copy of IAF MD-5 and MD-22 here because your consultant will probably say I don't know anything, they're free.... IAF Publications: Mandatory Documents
 

Graciel

Involved In Discussions
#8
That's understandable, it's much better to start over from the beginning that to prevent the loss of the original....Or is it?

I'm going to provide, in totally general terms, what your consultant isn't or can't, starting with.... Everything costs money. Please remember, everything is in very general terms.

1st - cost............. Lets put the day rate of an audit @ $2000 per day (we'll made it costs inclusive so it's not unrealistic)

2nd - Now all accredited Certification Bodies are required to apply a document (IAF MD-5) and it's guidance when determining audit duration (I'd almost bet your consultant doesn't know this) the audit duration requirements for Health & Safety audits are set forth in Annex C and are established by Effective Employee count and Risk............ Not knowing your circumstances or anything else I'll use a company with MEDIUM Risk @ 276-425 employees for use here. The "Total" audit duration for an initial certification (beginning to end) is set at 11 days (like I said, every accredited CB has to use the exact same chart, every single one). So now we have a starting point of 11 total audit days to get a "NEW" certificate for ISO 45001:2018 giving us a basic cost of $22,000 not counting other fees, costs, etc........... $22,000

3rd - OK moving forward, you've decided to do the MIGRATION during an annual surveillance audit, the MIGRATION rules require extra time be applied to the original audit duration (we'll use 1 day in this case). Now IAF MD-5 is again applied and it requires that annual surveillance audits be set at 1/3rd of the duration of the original "Total" duration in this case it would be 1/3rd of 11 days or 11 x 0.33 which equals 3.36 days (audit days must be in 1/2 day increments to the closest 1/2 day so now we have a 3.5 day annual audit. The 3.5 day annual audit, plus the 1 day MIGRATION comes to 4.5 days. Simple math here 4.5 days x $2,000 = $9,000

4th - Your certificate expires and once they expire OHSAS 18001 certificates vaporize, they no longer exist, they disappear and can't be extended....POOF! So now you've got to start absolutely and totally over from scratch.......... $22,000 minimum, not counting other neat fees and expenses (and they will happen) and instead of only the $9,000 MIGRATION expense you now have $9,000 + $22,000 = $31,000.... MINIMUM!

Very few consultant's that I've run into have any understanding of IAF MD-5 DETERMINATION OF AUDIT TIME OF QUALITY, ENVIRONMENTAL, AND
OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH & SAFETY MANAGEMENT SYSTEMS; IAF MD-22 APPLICATION OF ISO/IEC 17021-1 FOR THE CERTIFICATION OF OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH AND SAFETY MANAGEMENT SYSTEMS (OH&SMS); ISO 17021 CONFORMITY ASSASSMENT - REQUIREMENTS FOR BODIES PROVIDING AUDIT AND CERTIFICATION OF MANAGEMENT SYSTEMS
, or anything else related the the ACCREDITED certification process.

You can get you own copy of IAF MD-5 and MD-22 here because your consultant will probably say I don't know anything, they're free.... IAF Publications: Mandatory Documents
I was shocked with his statement (quality manager and certification body contact. I'm concerned about who are they going to blame if things go wrong.
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#9
I was shocked with his statement (quality manager and certification body contact. I'm concerned about who are they going to blame if things go wrong.
Best I can say is good luck, I just know this, my clients are waiting until August, they've been notified the MIGRATION'S are to be completed by July or they are risking expiration and a whole new certification process, Stage 1, Stage 2, everything.

Good luck
 
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