1st Gage R&R Results help

J

justncredible

#41
maybe try here.

http://www.betalasermike.com/component/option,com_docman/task,cat_view/gid,56

The place I was working at last we had z-mikes and we evaluated the keyence systems. There is a cost diffrence, and some major diffrences between the two. We also used air gages. ±.0002 was the normal tol we delt with, as it is a grind shop. Air and laser are the gages used in that industry. The indicator mics were for floor checks, as was snap gages. A keyence and air gaging you can use on the floor, it is not a good idea to use z-mikes on the floor. Z-mikes are alot cheaper, but are alot less robust.

Either way you are looking at $7,000 to $20,000 for a single unit. Even air will run you that when added up. You need to set up a stream of salesmen to come in and discuss options. As well as gage engineers from the bigger supply sales houses. I even belive Mitutoyo sales laser mikes, get them to send you a engineer for a few hours to sit down and discuss what your dealing with.
 
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C

CMfgT

#42
Ok everyone,

I had a rep from keyence today and demo the optical mic. Did a gage RR and the results are attached with the data. What gives:frust:, the total rr was 52% AGAIN!! The rep kept saying fixturing is just as important, but I am kinda at a loss for words here. I thought the results would be better.
 

Attachments

bobdoering

Stop X-bar/R Madness!!
Trusted Information Resource
#43
Might be worth getting Beta Lazermike and Mitutoyo laser micrometers in there. Your supplier should be able to give you the answer. First, they are right there. Second, the gage is their specialty.

The only other question might be was it done correctly - the exact same spot on the part each time? Pretty wild ranges for a laser mic. Part 6 and 7 were really kooky. Anything unusual about them?

Something has to give...:cool:
 
Last edited:
C

CMfgT

#44
I believe it was done correctly. I had the parts marked in the same exact spot and we had the spot facing the operator each time. The rep did mention fixturing was an issue, but this was an offline station, not in process. I can't imagine the results in process. I am going to have to check with another supplier.
 

Miner

Forum Moderator
Staff member
Admin
#46
It looks like Kurt M. had some reproducibility problems on parts 6 & 7 as well as repeatability problems with parts 1, 2 & 6. Joe C. had Repeatability problems with part 8. I would investigate these issues first. Eliminating the out-of-control Ranges would reduce Rbar by approximately 40% reducing the Repeatability variation. Addressing Kurt's measures of parts 6 & 7 will also improve the Reproducibility.

The gage resolution looks fine. Start with the recommendations above and see what you get before ruling out the gage.
 

bobdoering

Stop X-bar/R Madness!!
Trusted Information Resource
#47
The gage resolution looks fine. Start with the recommendations above and see what you get before ruling out the gage.
I agree, the data does kind of lend itself to make one think that there is an operator variation problem. If it was a hand gage, I would look closely at the technique. What disturbs me is that this is a high resolution non-contact measurement system. Having that much operator influence on the measurement results for any reason does not impress me with that type of measurement system. I agree with CMfgT's reaction to the results. I would rather see some other systems before breaking my back to get one to work better by restricting operator process. :cool:
 
C

CMfgT

#48
I agree, the data does kind of lend itself to make one think that there is an operator variation problem. If it was a hand gage, I would look closely at the technique. What disturbs me is that this is a high resolution non-contact measurement system. Having that much operator influence on the measurement results for any reason does not impress me with that type of measurement system. I agree with CMfgT's reaction to the results. I would rather see some other systems before breaking my back to get one to work better by restricting operator process. :cool:

That's the thing with my interpretation of the results. Yes there is operator variation, but that is the purpose of the optical mic (no contact gage) I wanted to take the human error out. I just didn’t expect that repeatability with a hand mic versus an optical mic to be the same. Especially because I am fighting employees (especially the ones who use a hand mic religiously) who do not think we need an upgrade. I kept saying, yes you can read a mic and might “have the touch” but John Doe from Mcdonald’s that we hired yesterday does not have the touch. And guess what, John Doe is the operator and inspecting the parts, your not. This is just frustrating because I want to make a non- contact system work here and prove to others the benefit.

Well I guess I need to decide if I even want to demo the optical mic for free. I am going to try and get a rep from Mitutoyo in here.

Thanks for all the help everyone.
 
J

justncredible

#49
Fixturing for the keyence is a issue, put two V-blocks on each side on a surface plate and just have the operators lay the parts on the v-blocks.

That was a concern about the keyence set up I had as well. They did leave the unit with us for a few weeks. So if you still have it try that. The beta laser mikes are way bigger units, they also are not made for the shop floor. There are still other options such as the marposs. Which goes in the machine and takes about 20 mins for the operator to set up.
 
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