3rd party audit time - Does working lunch count as audit time?

Sidney Vianna

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#61
António Vieira said:
Dear Sidney

Everybody I know here, does that.
This works this way:
A company that I never heard about phones me, because their consultant gave them my name. They ask me if I can make there an internal audit.
No problem so far. I go there and audit them. I do it just by my self, the registrar I work for has nothing to do with this service.
Then if that company chooses that registrar for certification and the registrar asks me (normally by e-mail) if I can do their certification audit I must tell then I can’t because I made that previous audit there.
The rule is for auditing we must have no contact with the company during the 3 years before. Except for any training action we gave there that couldn’t be done in the previous year of the certification audit.
I don’t see any conflict of interest. I still could say “quem não deve não teme”. And this the same way the Registrar thinks. In my point of view, this is a completely clean process!
Caro Antonio,
Thank you for the candid response. This happens ALL over the World. People that subcontract with Certification Bodies many times also work as consultants and “internal auditors”. We have several Covers that multi task like that. Actually, working all these angles give these people an accelerated learning experience, imo. Nothing wrong there.

But, the reason for my question is that the IAF Guidance Document to ISO Guide 62 states:

G.2.1.34. The certification/registration body should be independent from the body or bodies (including any individuals) which provide the internal audit of the organization’s quality management system subject to certification/registration.
So, if I were to work as a subcontract auditor for Registrar ABC but perform internal audits of supplier XYZ, even though ABC does not assign me as an auditor for XYZ, is ABC independent from me? I know it is confusing.

Also, if Registrars that use contracted auditors started telling them that they could not perform internal audits for companies certified by that registrar, that could be considered “restriction of trade”, a serious concern in the US.

First, I would like to know what the Accreditation Bodies understand of the paragraph above, and second, I would like to know how they police it. Because a requirement that is not enforceable is useless.
 
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tarheels4 - 2007

#62
Sidney Vianna said:
But, the reason for my question is that the IAF Guidance Document to ISO Guide 62 states:
Quote:
G.2.1.34. The certification/registration body should be independent from the body or bodies (including any individuals) which provide the internal audit of the organization’s quality management system subject to certification/registration.[/QUOTE]

I think this does imply that those that work for a registrar can't have a joint customer, but it is not practicable. I don't see a problem with a contract auditor/consultant having a customer that also uses a registrar that he/she audits for. I just don't see a conflict. Companys such as DNV have may many such situations, IMO. As do other registrars.

Sidney Vianna said:
First, I would like to know what the Accreditation Bodies understand of the paragraph above, and second, I would like to know how they police it. Because a requirement that is not enforceable is useless.
You know what the ABs think as you work for one. Please tell.

With respect to TS and IAOB maybe hijing can shed some light as he went to Plexus training recently.
 

Sidney Vianna

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#63
tarheels4 said:
You know what the ABs think as you work for one. Please tell.
By now, I thought you would know the difference between Accreditation Bodies and Certification Bodies, aka, registrars. I do not work for an Accreditation Body. I work for a Certification Body. The requirement applies to the CB's but the AB's do the policing.
 
T

tarheels4 - 2007

#64
Yes you are right, my mistake. What I meant was that since you work for a CB you should know what the relevant AB requires of you.
 
T

tarheels4 - 2007

#65
Sidney Vianna said:
Caro Antonio,

So, if I were to work as a subcontract auditor for Registrar ABC but perform internal audits of supplier XYZ, even though ABC does not assign me as an auditor for XYZ, is ABC independent from me? I know it is confusing.
Does your CB (registrar - the one you work for) allow contract auditors to perform internal audits or other consulting for your registration customers?
 

Sidney Vianna

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#66
tarheels4 said:
Does your CB (registrar - the one you work for) allow contract auditors to perform internal audits or other consulting for your registration customers?
I understand why you would like to know that, but I will respectfully decline to answer it. After all, I am an employee and I do not feel it is adequate for me to publicly disclose policies of the organization I work for. The old caveat also applies: My opinions might not reflect my employer’s opinion. But to me, much more important than discussing “dirt” is to discuss what the whole certification sector is doing to address stakeholder expectations.

Marc “knows” me since 1994 when I started posting at the Jennejohn discussion list. Since then, I have been vocal about many of the certification industry pitfalls. I am one of the few individuals that work for a registrar, and is willing to publicly accept and discuss many of the 3rd party management system dysfunctions. I do that because I believe we can transform it. For the better. We will need internal and external forces to accomplish that, though. In this litigious environment we work in, however, it would be imprudent for me to not to be careful about specific allegations or statements I make.
I hope you understand my position.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#67
tarheels4 said:
Quote:
G.2.1.34. The certification/registration body should be independent from the body or bodies (including any individuals) which provide the internal audit of the organization’s quality management system subject to certification/registration.
I think this does imply that those that work for a registrar can't have a joint customer, but it is not practicable. I don't see a problem with a contract auditor/consultant having a customer that also uses a registrar that he/she audits for. I just don't see a conflict. Companys such as DNV have may many such situations, IMO. As do other registrars.


You know what the ABs think as you work for one. Please tell.

With respect to TS and IAOB maybe hijing can shed some light as he went to Plexus training recently.[/quote]


This specific nuance did not come up during the Plexus training. General discussing included the standard rule about public training vs. private consulting.

However, I do not recall reading any issue where my consulting, as an independent auditor, would have any effect on the stated independence between the registrar and an auditee.

As a contract employee, I am independent of my registrar, and vice versa, except when they have contracted me to provide a service. As long as I also have not provided consulting to an organization which I am auditing, there should be no issue.

My relationships with CBs is pretty straightforward and transparent. There aren't any backroom deals. Not really needed. We both provide a mutual service to each other, but are independent of each other.
 
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