5 why's in 3 categories

#1
Hello,

I've been asked to fill out a 5 why's form. Until now I've only seen the normal 5 whys but this time, the format is divided in 3 categories:
occurrence: use this path for why the specific non conformance occured
detection: use this path to investigate why the problem was not detected
systemic: use this path to investigate the systematic root cause
A 5 why's exercise must be performed for each of the categories for 1 problem. I have no problem with detection, but I'm struggling to find the difference between occurrence and systemic.
Could someone please help me with the correct definition and application for these two, and if possible with a quick example

Thanks!!

Jose
 

qualprod

Quite Involved in Discussions
#2
While 5w, is a simple practice to find root causes, it seems you want to go deeper in the analysis, why don't to use Ishikawa or 8d?
You may also ask who created this formats, what is the reason for the use of three categories?
Hope this helps
 

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Staff member
Admin
#4
Hello,

I've been asked to fill out a 5 why's form. Until now I've only seen the normal 5 whys but this time, the format is divided in 3 categories:
occurrence: use this path for why the specific non conformance occured
detection: use this path to investigate why the problem was not detected
systemic: use this path to investigate the systematic root cause
A 5 why's exercise must be performed for each of the categories for 1 problem. I have no problem with detection, but I'm struggling to find the difference between occurrence and systemic.
Could someone please help me with the correct definition and application for these two, and if possible with a quick example

Thanks!!

Jose
Occurrence is an event. Systemic means things that could influence or enable the event, but perhaps not directly cause it.

Systemic = Man/material/machine/method/mother nature

Inadequate supplies/raw materials, improper instructions to the supplier/work instructions out of date/primary qualified personnel not in place/temperature or humidity fluctuations/equipment maintenance overdue because of a software glitch that closes a work order if an unrelated repair is done (I've seen that).
 

Miner

Forum Moderator
Staff member
Admin
#5
In addition to Jen's comments:

Look for undocumented practices, non-standard practices, blanket practices with no exceptions, loopholes in policies/procedures, or lack of coverage.
 

pziemlewicz

Starting to get Involved
#6
I've been out of automotive for a few years, but this was format GM used to require. If you're providing a corrective action for them, or a tier 1, that's likely why you're receiving the request.

The scenario works best for part quality issues: I shipped a load of widgets that had lefts mixed with rights.

Occurrence: The parts looked similar and operator packed them together.
Detection: It was not detected because there is no part verification after pack.
Systemic: Left and Right sides ran on the same line, one after the other, and there was no clean break when one tool came out and the next went in.

Hope this helps.
 

Jim Wynne

Super Moderator
#7
Hello,

I've been asked to fill out a 5 why's form. Until now I've only seen the normal 5 whys but this time, the format is divided in 3 categories:
occurrence: use this path for why the specific non conformance occured
detection: use this path to investigate why the problem was not detected
systemic: use this path to investigate the systematic root cause
A 5 why's exercise must be performed for each of the categories for 1 problem. I have no problem with detection, but I'm struggling to find the difference between occurrence and systemic.
Could someone please help me with the correct definition and application for these two, and if possible with a quick example

Thanks!!

Jose
Unfortunately the criteria are mostly incoherent. Note the confusion between "systemic" and "systematic." They are two different concepts. I think what they're looking for is the direct local problem that caused the "occurrence" and possible problems with the "system" in general that allowed the problem(s) identified under "Occurrence." In other words, "Systemic" is asking you to take a broader view of systems in general.
 

John C. Abnet

Teacher,Sensei,Kennari
#8
Good day @joseGB;
The descriptions provided to you by @jen kirley are good and sound.
What you will find with the "5 WHY" (an extremely good and useful tool) is that many customers/organizations have their own local version, so the structure and terminology can differ significantly. The key is to understand the intent and approach of the 5 WHY and it is then fairly easy to "give unto ceasar" in regards to any specific formats that the various customers may have.
This is an area where I have 25 years of expertise, including Honda's "5p" version, which many consider to be the most productive and complex of the various takes on the 5 WHY.
Please feel free to direct message me and/or reach out to me.
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#9
Good day @joseGB;
The descriptions provided to you by @jen kirley are good and sound.
What you will find with the "5 WHY" (an extremely good and useful tool) is that many customers/organizations have their own local version, so the structure and terminology can differ significantly. The key is to understand the intent and approach of the 5 WHY and it is then fairly easy to "give unto ceasar" in regards to any specific formats that the various customers may have.
This is an area where I have 25 years of expertise, including Honda's "5p" version, which many consider to be the most productive and complex of the various takes on the 5 WHY.
Why not sharing here?
 
Last edited:

John C. Abnet

Teacher,Sensei,Kennari
#10
Good day @ stijloor;
There are simply too many "customer" variations and too much necessary information to properly convey via this site. I will give this some thought and see if there is some "condensed" overview I can provide.
Be well.
 

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