8.2.2 Internal Audit - Seeking Opinions

#21
Kevin, that's why you are a "Super Moderator". :thedeal:

Quick question for you Kevin. How do you propose to eliminate biased auditing? This is really a problem with internal audits, particularly in small companies. I work here, I know the problems and I know if a corrective action was true, or just going through the motions. I also know if our QMS is real or "just for the flag". In each case, is not the auditor somewhat biased from the start?

Okay, two quick questions
 
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M

M Greenaway

#22
Energy

Going back a few posts where you asked about auditing things 'outside' of the audit scope.

I have always audited either by department or by process, and then audited against the applicable clause of the standard for whatever I see in the department or process. As such certain things like document control would be audited at every audit, but perhaps a shallower audit than a full blown audit of the document control process. Also CA/PA would be audited at every departmental audit.
 
#23
Auditing out-of-scope

Okay Martin, I'm with you. But suppose you are auditing a department/function/activity/process. I think energy's concern is whether you have the authority to audit a different department, function, activity or process. How far would you go, or allow?
 
E

energy

#24
Takes a little longer

M Greenaway said:

Energy
I have always audited either by department or by process, and then audited against the applicable clause of the standard for whatever I see in the department or process. As such certain things like document control would be audited at every audit, but perhaps a shallower audit than a full blown audit of the document control process. Also CA/PA would be audited at every departmental audit.
M.,

Agree. By saying in your scope that Department so and so will be audited to the Standard, you have a lot of latitude. I never thought about it that way. You can pretty much pick and choose without running into conflict with someone like me saying "Hey, that wasn't in the scope." :vfunny: But the original posts leaned towards looking at past findings, any findings, to get a feel for what things may be worth looking at. So, let's say there are a couple of dozen departments. You would look at all departments to ensure they meet the standard. I'm sure that these departments are the top departments. Not departments within a department.
At any rate, your approach to the scope, shoots holes in my sails as far as obstructing attempts from that needle head guy we all dread sniffing and sniffing until he/she earns their "I got you" award. Kind of like a search warrant. Oh well. it was fun talking about it.

db. I understand you now. Your question to martin was the one I was getting at.

Kevin, You audit? Well, I'll be. I thought you had about 20 of them reporting to you!:vfunny: :smokin:
 
J

JodiB

#26
Re: Takes a little longer

energy said:
At any rate, your approach to the scope, shoots holes in my sails as far as obstructing attempts from that needle head guy we all dread sniffing and sniffing until he/she earns their "I got you" award. Kind of like a search warrant. Oh well. it was fun talking about it.
Energy,

As far as "authority" (as Db puts it), at the registrar we always said that the schedule was a guideline and the assessor had the right to look elsewhere if it was determined to be needed. Yep, sort of like an open search warrant. But a company shouldn't fear having other things looked at simply because they didn't have advance notice. What good is the notice? So you can "clean up" or hide something? Ahhhhhh, nobody ever does that, do they? ;)
 
E

energy

#27
Re: Re: Takes a little longer

Lucinda said:

Energy,

As far as "authority" (as Db puts it), at the registrar we always said that the schedule was a guideline and the assessor had the right to look elsewhere if it was determined to be needed. Yep, sort of like an open search warrant. But a company shouldn't fear having other things looked at simply because they didn't have advance notice. What good is the notice? So you can "clean up" or hide something? Ahhhhhh, nobody ever does that, do they? ;)
Cinda,

If you look hard enough and long enough, there is always something to gripe about. To me, it's like taking a final exam. "Here's your test." You answer the 50 questions, feel real good about yourself and the professor says, "Oh, by the way, here's another 25". :vfunny: No, seriously, at your opening meeting you get the scope. There is no way anyone is going to run around trying to mop up a mess while the audit is going on. If it were that easy, it would already have been identified and corrected. The evidence should also tell you if it was "invented" that day.
This fear thing you mention is also what police use to search your private property when they don't know exactly what it is they are looking for. Anything will do. What I don't like is the "right" assumed by anybody to "determine" elsewhere as needed. This is the reason for the determining the scope at the outset. Keeps the focus and respects the company's schedule, etc. This is akin to bringing a full shopping carriage into the 8 items or less checkout line. It's wrong. It's inconsiderate to others (the company that pays them). And worse, just like the checkout line, we have to stand meekly by and watch, or say something. Me? I want to talk to them and ask them what they are doing. I just have this thing about bullies. :vfunny: :smokin:
 
J

JodiB

#28
Energy,
I certainly agree with you about respecting a company's schedule. After all, the company has made certain people available at certain times so that the audit can be done and it isn't nice to start toying around with it. On the other hand, during the course of an audit an assessor has to be able to follow an audit trail and that can sometimes take them beyond the original planned areas. Or it is possible that the audit goes so well and fast through the planned areas that time allows the audit team to catch a few "extra" areas on the visit if the company can accommodate it.
I don't think anyone wants to feel like the police are doing a body cavity search :eek: trying to find anything they can! The audit is supposed to be a beneficial thing as well as a verification by the certification body.
 
#29
FWIW

My posts were almost entirely directed at internal auditing, not external. I think the "rules" are different for the two. Although, in external auditing, the contract is a factor, you can always "fire" the auditor. Oh wait....... you can do that in internal auditing as well.
 

Kevin Mader

One of THE Original Covers!
Staff member
Admin
#30
Dave,

Ask me the easy questions. The tough ones make me look bad if I get them wrong!!

How do we eliminate bias altogether? Not an easy task, perhaps impossible to entirely defeat. Let’s face it: we make decisions about things based on principles, values, and beliefs we hold dear to ourselves on conscious and subconscious levels that others may not hold. We are influenced by both types while we sort things out for ourselves. What is true for me may not be true for you, yet both of us are right. Weird, but true.

So how do we eliminate bias from auditing, particularly, internal auditing? If we look at Webster’s definitions on bias, we see “partiality” and “prejudice”. I think that in auditing, we as auditors must be impartial and fight the prejudice we are aware of. This is why I think that if we were to audit with a predisposition of what we are likely to find, then we will probably find it. This is neither fair, nor in most instances, proper. Given the time, it is likely that we could make a case one way or the other. We see it happening all the time. Sometimes, we are part of it.

In a small company, it is easy to know the shortcomings of another department. In these instances, we should excuse ourselves of the job of auditing that department. If an alternate can’t be found because of the limited resource of internal auditors, then recommend hiring a consultant, someone who will become a long-term association like your registrar. I’d call Marc.;)

I guess my answer in a nutshell is this: since bias will be present, we should do our best to be aware of the things we can (prejudices) and suppress them best we can while auditing. Avoid the obvious i.e., being told that there is a problem in an area so go find it. Be the independent and objective auditor.

Kind regards,

Kevin


p.s.

energy,

The most I had at any one time was around 12, although as you might suspect, some were just names on a roster. Now though, I am one of about 8 auditors at my present job without the responsibility of scheduling or training. Sweet!!!!!!:biglaugh:
 
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