8.2.4.2 Appearance Items - When Masters for Colour, Grain, etc are not appropriate?

morteza

Trusted Information Resource
#1
Hi all,
In clause 8.2.4.2 ISO/TS states:
For organizations manufacturing parts designated by the customer as "appearance items", the organization shall provide
……
-masters for colour, grain, gloss, metallic brilliance, texture, distinctness of image (DOI), as appropriate,
………
May someone explain me when the usage of masters for for colour, grain, etc is not appropriate?
I think for inspection of appearance characteristics such as color, grain or gloss, it is always necessary to use masters (sample parts or pictures as masters).
Is it a requirement of ISO/TS that these masters to be approved by customer?
Thanks all
 
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Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#2
Re: 8.2.4.2 Appearance Items - When Masters for Colour, Grain, etc are not appropriat

Hi all,
In clause 8.2.4.2 ISO/TS states:
For organizations manufacturing parts designated by the customer as "appearance items", the organization shall provide
……
-masters for colour, grain, gloss, metallic brilliance, texture, distinctness of image (DOI), as appropriate,
………
May someone explain me when the usage of masters for for colour, grain, etc is not appropriate?
I think for inspection of appearance characteristics such as color, grain or gloss, it is always necessary to use masters (sample parts or pictures as masters).
Is it a requirement of ISO/TS that these masters to be approved by customer?
Thanks all
What "as appropriate" means there is that not all of those characteristics will have to be measured. For example, you might have to evaluate color but not gloss or texture.

There is no requirement in the standard for customers to supply masters. Nonetheless, it's important, when standards aren't provided, that customers and suppliers agree on objective criteria. This might involve the supplier creating a master of some kind and having the customer approve it.
 
A

amit_rd

#3
Re: 8.2.4.2 Appearance Items - When Masters for Colour, Grain, etc are not appropriat

Hi all,
In clause 8.2.4.2 ISO/TS states:
For organizations manufacturing parts designated by the customer as "appearance items", the organization shall provide
……
-masters for colour, grain, gloss, metallic brilliance, texture, distinctness of image (DOI), as appropriate,
………
May someone explain me when the usage of masters for for colour, grain, etc is not appropriate?
I think for inspection of appearance characteristics such as color, grain or gloss, it is always necessary to use masters (sample parts or pictures as masters).
Is it a requirement of ISO/TS that these masters to be approved by customer?
Thanks all
I am afraid to state that you have misunderstood "as appropriate" - Here, as appropriate means that masters are required for all or any of the specific properties like colour, grain, gloss, metallic brilliance, texture etc. - as appropriate :)

About customer approval - its always better to have it, in case its not feasible- define an internal customer representative who can do that.
 

somashekar

Staff member
Super Moderator
#4
Re: 8.2.4.2 Appearance Items - When Masters for Colour, Grain, etc are not appropriat

Hi all,
In clause 8.2.4.2 ISO/TS states:
For organizations manufacturing parts designated by the customer as "appearance items", the organization shall provide
……
-masters for colour, grain, gloss, metallic brilliance, texture, distinctness of image (DOI), as appropriate,
………
May someone explain me when the usage of masters for for colour, grain, etc is not appropriate?
I think for inspection of appearance characteristics such as color, grain or gloss, it is always necessary to use masters (sample parts or pictures as masters).
Is it a requirement of ISO/TS that these masters to be approved by customer?
Thanks all
Please also note that you can have more than one master for any of the said appearance items, making your task that much more easy and clear.
Customer approval of the masters are a must as after all these are for appearance items as said by your customer.

Please note that if the appearance parts get assembled one next to another, or several that can be seen together., then it makes sense to use one of the approved masters that you have. In case they are single parts in assembly, then any one master could do.
 
Last edited:

morteza

Trusted Information Resource
#5
Re: 8.2.4.2 Appearance Items - When Masters for Colour, Grain, etc are not appropriat

Please also note that you can have more than one master for any of the said appearance items, making your task that much more easy and clear.
Customer approval of the masters are a must as after all these are for appearance items as said by your customer.
Hi Somashekar
Thanks for your reply
If I understand correctly from Master Jim, amit and your replies:
1- Having master for appearance items is a requirement according to 8.2.4.2.
2- In your reply you mentioned that customer approval on appearance master is a must (is a requirement). Please say us according to which clause of ISO/TS it is a requirement. I believe (the same as amit rd) that approval of masters would become a requirement, only when the customer requires it.
Are my 2 understandings right?
Thanks
 

somashekar

Staff member
Super Moderator
#6
Re: 8.2.4.2 Appearance Items - When Masters for Colour, Grain, etc are not appropriat

1- Having master for appearance items is a requirement according to 8.2.4.2.
Yes, Your organization shall provide it.
2- In your reply you mentioned that customer approval on appearance master is a must (is a requirement). Please say us according to which clause of ISO/TS it is a requirement. I believe (the same as amit rd) that approval of masters would become a requirement, only when the customer requires it.
I wish standards were as explicit as you wanted.
When a customer calls any of the colour, grain, gloss, metallic brilliance, texture, distinctness of image, as appearance item, how can you alone provide master, without customer approving it ?
As these are customer designated, there can be no master without customer approval.
Your blue is not customer blue, unless customer says so.
These masters are nothing but specifications and it is the customer who has approve his specification.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#7
Re: 8.2.4.2 Appearance Items - When Masters for Colour, Grain, etc are not appropriat

Yes, Your organization shall provide it.

I wish standards were as explicit as you wanted.
When a customer calls any of the colour, grain, gloss, metallic brilliance, texture, distinctness of image, as appearance item, how can you alone provide master, without customer approving it ?
By using masters that meet the specifications. If the specifications are subjective or ambiguous, it becomes important to seek agreement and approval with the customer. In the presence of objective specifications, there is no need for a customer to approve masters, nor is there a requirement in the standard for customer approval.

As these are customer designated, there can be no master without customer approval.
Your blue is not customer blue, unless customer says so.
These masters are nothing but specifications and it is the customer who has approve his specification.
In the case of color matching, a standard is necessary. In most cases, these are supplied by the customer along with some form of objective measurement limits. In any event, it's important to eliminate subjectivity as far as possible when dealing with color.

For other appearance requirements, such as gloss and texture, the design record should specify either a value (in the case of gloss) or a standard in the case of texture. The gloss can be measured and the texture can be compared to a standard plaque in most cases, and no customer approval is necessary.
 
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