8.3 - Control of nonconformity product or material/part?

Q

QAMTY

#1
Hi all

I was browsing in Elsmar looking an answer for my problem, I focused in cases in 2008, but I'm not convinced. I'm reviving an old issue which has caused lot of opinions. In fact I noticed that very different points of view came out from the users.

Some users considered a product, only when is completely finished, however some others consider a product everything which is used through all the process, to get the final product and in every step (raw material, components, parts, etc).
Definition, Product=?result of a set of interrelated or interacting atilvities which transforms inputs into outputs?.

I'd like to share my case, (similar to old threads)awaiting for your valuable comments, maybe the answers today may be different.

I'll explain.

In my case, I have a print shop. When I produce manuals, in production, there are some sub-processes acting, first, Printing, then cutting, folding, punching, counting, and finally the manual is finished.

Do I have to control the product (8.3) only at the end or in all the sub processes? , suppose that at the middle of the process, I have a raw material problem (dirty paper), how to consider this?, if it's material, just paper, is not the final product required by the client.

Should I have to apply 8.3?, raising an NCR, then, segregating the material, applying a disposition and so on?. or should I have to raise only a NCR but not applying disposition?

Applying 8.3, raising ncr's in every sub process is very time consuming, really I'm not sure how to handle this issue.

Can someone share experiencies regarding how to manage the nonconformities in a Print Shop?

Thanks to all for your help
 
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John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#2
Re: 8.3 control of nonconformity product or material/part?

Hi all

I was browsing in Elsmar looking an answer for my problem, I focused in cases in 2008, but I'm not convinced. I'm reviving an old issue which has caused lot of opinions. In fact I noticed that very different points of view came out from the users.

Some users considered a product, only when is completely finished, however some others consider a product everything which is used through all the process, to get the final product and in every step (raw material, components, parts, etc).
Definition, Product=“result of a set of interrelated or interacting atilvities which transforms inputs into outputs”.

I'd like to share my case, (similar to old threads)awaiting for your valuable comments, maybe the answers today may be different.

I'll explain.

In my case, I have a print shop. When I produce manuals, in production, there are some sub-processes acting, first, Printing, then cutting, folding, punching, counting, and finally the manual is finished.

Do I have to control the product (8.3) only at the end or in all the sub processes? , suppose that at the middle of the process, I have a raw material problem (dirty paper), how to consider this?, if it's material, just paper, is not the final product required by the client.

Should I have to apply 8.3?, raising an NCR, then, segregating the material, applying a disposition and so on?. or should I have to raise only a NCR but not applying disposition?

Applying 8.3, raising ncr's in every sub process is very time consuming, really I'm not sure how to handle this issue.

Can someone share experiencies regarding how to manage the nonconformities in a Print Shop?

Thanks to all for your help
QAMTY,

Of course you would not add value to nonconforming paper by printing on it. You would devalue paper by using ink that failed to conform to requirements.

So, you apply 8.3 to incoming products (aka materials) to prevent nonconformity in your products.

You may also choose to make sure your suppliers pay the price of their nonconformity so, in future, they also invest in stopping recurrence.

On discovering nonconforming product (even if partially complete product) during production you apply 8.3 to avoid further waste and perhaps to take corrective action to stop recurrence.

Finally, you may find nonconforming product before shipping it to your customer. Of course you apply 8.3 at this late time also.

As you can see, the earlier you apply 8.3 the more money you save and avoiding nonconformity allows you to save the most. At a minimum you record the nature of the nonconformity and stop its use until the nonconforming product is scrapped or made acceptable for use. Periodically, you review these records to reduce the price paid for nonconformity with your improvement investment decisions.

This is my interpretation of product in the context of 8.3 and I suspect it is your's too.

This interpretation is in conformity with ISO 9000, the normative reference to ISO 9001.

BTW, I do not use the term "subprocess", preferring activity instead. And you need only issue an NCR when communicating with those responsible for the earlier defective process or processes that created the defective product.

John
 

dsanabria

Quite Involved in Discussions
#3
Do I have to control the product (8.3) only at the end or in all the sub processes?

WHAT.... Time to implement Risk assessment to your inner Processes and this is done at the very beginning with - Contract review.

If your process is producing NCR - STOP IT and fix the issues - Continuous Improvement.

When you invoke clause 8.3 (AKA MRB) - it's too late.:2cents:
 
Q

QAMTY

#4
Re: 8.3 control of nonconformity product or material/part?

Thanks John

I agree with you summing up:

Even if product is partially completed, it may be raw materials or parts, It's considered PRODUCT, Right.
On the other hand, what is your opinion in implementing administratives NC's?.
As I understand nonconformities also apply to services.

I'm trying to use the same format (NCR) to raise nc's coming from the administratives departments, e.g. HR didn't release the monthly payment to workers, or Finance didn't release the invoice for sending it to client.
The treatment it's the same as the Product, but in the tagging, disposition, segregation I suggest to register in format only what is applicable.

Please feed me back.

Thanks
 

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#5
Re: 8.3 control of nonconformity product or material/part?

Thanks John

I agree with you summing up:

Even if product is partially completed, it may be raw materials or parts, It's considered PRODUCT, Right.
On the other hand, what is your opinion in implementing administratives NC's?.
As I understand nonconformities also apply to services.

I'm trying to use the same format (NCR) to raise nc's coming from the administratives departments, e.g. HR didn't release the monthly payment to workers, or Finance didn't release the invoice for sending it to client.
The treatment it's the same as the Product, but in the tagging, disposition, segregation I suggest to register in format only what is applicable.

Please feed me back.

Thanks
QAMTY,

I cannot agree with your idea of imposing the same form on everyone. They may not trust widespread reporting. Instead ask them how they record the nature of service and product nonconformities your colleagues encounter.

Service nonconformities involving the customer usually result in immediate correction to the extent possible and compensation may be paid.

Again, records of the nature of each of these nonconformities is recorded and reviewed for removal of root causes of the most expensive nonconformities.

Discover, respect and capture the natural routines that already exist for dealing with nonconformities.

Avoid imposing your form even if it makes your job easier or their way doesn't quite conform to 8.3. Instead, engage them in understanding the benefit of recording the nature of their nonconforming services and products. More important, help your colleagues to experience the benefits of risk assessment, input controls, planning, process design and mistake proofing.

John
 
Last edited:

dsanabria

Quite Involved in Discussions
#6
Re: 8.3 control of nonconformity product or material/part?

Thanks John

I agree with you summing up:

Even if product is partially completed, it may be raw materials or parts, It's considered PRODUCT, Right.
On the other hand, what is your opinion in implementing administratives NC's?.
As I understand nonconformities also apply to services.

I'm trying to use the same format (NCR) to raise nc's coming from the administratives departments, e.g. HR didn't release the monthly payment to workers, or Finance didn't release the invoice for sending it to client.
The treatment it's the same as the Product, but in the tagging, disposition, segregation I suggest to register in format only what is applicable.

Please feed me back.

Thanks
You are biting the wrong departments - first, those areas do not affect production - we could argue that indirectly they do but spending time fixing those issues will not increase efficiency of the processes so focus on suppliers, and product flow.

Services (AKA = Outsource Processes) in the standards are those that:

NOTE 1 Processes needed for the quality management system referred to above include processes for management activities, provision of resources, product realization, measurement, analysis and improvement.

NOTE 2 An "outsourced process" is a process that the organization needs for its quality management system and which the organization chooses to have performed by an external party.


SO stay away from areas that you can not find in the standard.

Furthermore, I think that if you create a PARETTO chart - you will very busy looking and working towards effective processes.
 
Q

QAMTY

#7
Re: 8.3 control of nonconformity product or material/part?

Thanks John and Dsanabria

Dsanabria

I agree,nc's from HR and Finance don't affect production directly, but don't you think that in some way affect client satisfaction? (e.g. an invoice not released by finance at the right time causes not to deliver the product to client on time.
Ok, these cases shouldn't fit in 8.3, but could be captured by other method, maybe outside of the system, and from time to time to spend time in analyzing the cases, looking for improvements.
does it sound what my proposal?

Thanks
 

somashekar

Staff member
Super Moderator
#8
Re: 8.3 control of nonconformity product or material/part?

8.3 is about the controls to be exercised on a NC product or service. These products may be as purchased part or the final product or at any stage in between...
How one deals with this is different from how one deals with the process nonconformity.
Process monitoring and measurement is dealt in 8.2.3
I am still not clear what your question or situation is .....
 

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#9
Re: 8.3 control of nonconformity product or material/part?

Thanks John and Dsanabria

Dsanabria

I agree,nc's from HR and Finance don't affect production directly, but don't you think that in some way affect client satisfaction? (e.g. an invoice not released by finance at the right time causes not to deliver the product to client on time.
Ok, these cases shouldn't fit in 8.3, but could be captured by other method, maybe outside of the system, and from time to time to spend time in analyzing the cases, looking for improvements.
does it sound what my proposal?

Thanks
QAMTY,

Of course, HR usually own the processes for recruiting and training while Finance own the processes for invoicing and for paying suppliers for conforming services and products.

But, are these processes resulting in nonconforming products: employees without the necessary competence, late or inaccurate invoices or payment for nonconforming services and products?

Of all the nonconforming products produced by your system are these among the vital few or the trivial many? Usually, nonconformities from HR and Finance are at the bottom of the pile for an organization that is focused on its customers.

John
 

dsanabria

Quite Involved in Discussions
#10
Re: 8.3 control of nonconformity product or material/part?

Thanks John and Dsanabria

Dsanabria

I agree,nc's from HR and Finance don't affect production directly, but don't you think that in some way affect client satisfaction? (e.g. an invoice not released by finance at the right time causes not to deliver the product to client on time.
Ok, these cases shouldn't fit in 8.3, but could be captured by other method, maybe outside of the system, and from time to time to spend time in analyzing the cases, looking for improvements.
does it sound what my proposal?

Thanks
First - it looks like you really want to go after HR and Finance rather than your production process. In your example of finance not paying invoices to customer... let me check...hmmm I thought customer paid your company for services or processes. In essence no company collects money before releasing the product - is the other way around.

Bottom line, you are spending too much time going after the wrong department. The finance department has their unique auditors, lawyers and the top guy looking at the books every time they get a chance so they should be on top of things.

You need to let it go and take that same energy and use it in streamlining your process - that is the real fun - now go and conquer the world.
 
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