A few questions about the PPAP Manual (4th edition)

O

Oskar_S

#1
Well I have found out that I have plenty of small questions about the text i the PPAP Manual (4 ed). But of course I can't remember them all so I write them down as they pops up.

Design Record. Where the design record is in electronic format, produce a hard copy to identify measurements taken.
-Why do you need a hard copy to see what measurements have been taken?

Authorized engineering change documents. Is this a way to make the production process a bit smoother? Instead of immediately put the change in the design record, you just get an approval from a qualified engineer and later on put it into the design record. Isn't there a risk that everything goes in the "change documents" instead of putting it into design record?


to be continued....
 
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Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#2
Re: A few questions about the PPAP Manual (4 ed)

Design Record. Where the design record is in electronic format, produce a hard copy to identify measurements taken.
-Why do you need a hard copy to see what measurements have been taken?
Because the PPAP submission usually must include a dimensional report. This means that the dimensional report must be keyed to a "ballooned" drawing--a drawing where the dimensional callouts and other specifications are numbered.

Authorized engineering change documents. Is this a way to make the production process a bit smoother? Instead of immediately put the change in the design record, you just get an approval from a qualified engineer and later on put it into the design record. Isn't there a risk that everything goes in the "change documents" instead of putting it into design record?
Yes, there is a risk, but in the automotive industry it's not unusual for production to commence before all of the designs are "frozen." Nonetheless, engineering changes that aren't captured in the current design record must be officially accounted for in the PPAP submission. You should never agree to implementing design record changes until they're properly documented, whether the work is automotive or not.
 
D

DrM2u

#3
Re: A few questions about the PPAP Manual (4 ed)

Because the PPAP submission usually must include a dimensional report. This means that the dimensional report must be keyed to a "ballooned" drawing--a drawing where the dimensional callouts and other specifications are numbered.


Yes, there is a risk, but in the automotive industry it's not unusual for production to commence before all of the designs are "frozen." Nonetheless, engineering changes that aren't captured in the current design record must be officially accounted for in the PPAP submission. You should never agree to implementing design record changes until they're properly documented, whether the work is automotive or not.
I partially disagree with Jim's first statement. I know organizations where all the prints are electronic, no hard copies at all. An electronic copy of the print is 'balooned' in PDF format and included with the PPAP package, which is also submitted electronically along with the layout data. This approach has been accepted by many customers. You might need a hard copy to use while you take the measurements, but it does not mean that you have to include that in the PPAP package.

I do agree with Jim's second comment. Product designs are changing occasionally after the PPAP submissions, usually in the younger age of the product. Whatever you do, the revision level on the PPAP must match the most recent formal revision level provided by your customer, regardless of any verbal agreements. Often times subsequent changes result in having to re-PPAP the product and/or process, even if it means just changing the revision level on your PPAP documentation and records. And, like Jim said, this is valid regardless of what industry you operate in.
 
B

brahmaiah

#4
Re: A few questions about the PPAP Manual (4 ed)

Well I have found out that I have plenty of small questions about the text i the PPAP Manual (4 ed). But of course I can't remember them all so I write them down as they pops up.

Design Record. Where the design record is in electronic format, produce a hard copy to identify measurements taken.
-Why do you need a hard copy to see what measurements have been taken?

Authorized engineering change documents. Is this a way to make the production process a bit smoother? Instead of immediately put the change in the design record, you just get an approval from a qualified engineer and later on put it into the design record. Isn't there a risk that everything goes in the "change documents" instead of putting it into design record?


to be continued....
Now a days a complete PPAP RECORDS are submitted in electronic format.
See the attachment below:
V.J.Brahmaiah
 

Attachments

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#5
Re: A few questions about the PPAP Manual (4 ed)

I partially disagree with Jim's first statement. I know organizations where all the prints are electronic, no hard copies at all. An electronic copy of the print is 'balooned' in PDF format and included with the PPAP package, which is also submitted electronically along with the layout data. This approach has been accepted by many customers. You might need a hard copy to use while you take the measurements, but it does not mean that you have to include that in the PPAP package.
I thought that the idea of "electronic" PPAP submissions was sufficiently widespread that I didn't have to mention it. My answer is applicable to any sort of submission.
 
O

Oskar_S

#6
Thanks for all answers. As I see it you make a balloned "hard" record when you are doing the acctual measurments and then transforms it into an electronic record.

Now here comes a new question. The different FMEA, how did your company learned how to do them? Well there is a manual and its pretty basic and easy to understand. But as soon as you start with a real case there is always some isues regarding detail level, different rpn with in the group and across different groups.
 
D

DrM2u

#7
Thanks for all answers. As I see it you make a balloned "hard" record when you are doing the acctual measurments and then transforms it into an electronic record.

Now here comes a new question. The different FMEA, how did your company learned how to do them? Well there is a manual and its pretty basic and easy to understand. But as soon as you start with a real case there is always some isues regarding detail level, different rpn with in the group and across different groups.
There is no standard approach to developing an FMEA. I have seen PFMEAs that cover everything from receiving to shipping (busy and hard to follow), PFMEAs that cover only the manufacturing process (superficial), and PFMEAs that are broken down by each process identified in the Process Flow Diagram. For DFMEA, usually consideration is given to product safety, functionality, risk, design for manufacturing & assembly, serviceability, maintainability, etc.

I prefer the last approach to PFMEA because often times many processes are standardized within an organization regardless of the product (i.e. receiving, storage, material handling). A new product/process development would require just the creation of a specifc PFMEA & control plan; therefore for the PPAP all you have to do is compile the specific and the other standardized PFMEAs and Control Plans. This results in a lot of time savings and more focus on the new product/process. It also facilitates more effective documentation and easier control of documents.

Regarding how to do the FMEA, you definitely need to do it using a team approach; not only is more effective but it is also a requirement in some standards (I believe TS16949). Define the scope of the FMEA (where the process at hand starts and ends) and stay within the scope, otherwise you'll be wondering all over the place. As a team, you can always decide to narrow the scope (i.e. look at sub-processes within a process) if the FMEA seems to expansive or to expand the scope (look at the higher process) if you feel the FMEA is not clear enough. The RPN should be consistent within the group because it is the result of a group consensus. The individual ratings might vary from member to member because of everyone's perspective, but try to use hard data whenever possible and follow the established rating criteeria (per FMEA manual or approved by your customer). This ensures most accurate RPN calculations. Also do not hesitate to argue the RPN values and the need for action with your customer. It is very easy to get an RPN over 100 using the latest AIAG FMEA criteria; however many customers ares till stuck about 10 years ago in time when the criteria was less specific and more subjective. Back then most customers demanded that action is taken for every RPN over 100, which is unrealistic today. From my experience, nowdays many companies are taking actions on RPNs over 150 based on the current ratings.

Whatever approach you use, always follow this sequence: process flow diagram -> PFMEA(s) -> Control Plan(s). One step feeds into the other and cannot me mixed, although some can overlap (like PFMEA and Control Plan).
 
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