A Registration Certificate...

jmech

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#21
What makes you believe the supplier would know you were the entity complaining to the CB?

How would sending the CB a complaint about a supplier cost you if the supplier's performance is bad enough to complain about it?
It is possible that the supplier would not be able to figure out that we had submitted the complaint, but very likely that they will figure it out if we have already made a good faith effort to first notify the supplier about the issue and/or if the investigation is focused on the issue that we reported.

The paid employee time to prepare the complaint with supporting evidence is the most obvious cost.
 
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Sidney Vianna

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#22
I would greatly appreciate improved CBs and greater accountability of CBs for their certification decisions. Engaging with suppliers' CBs seems like a good idea, especially if other organizations would do it (and I wasn't the supplier involved), but it's not likely to become common in the real world.
How could CB's be accountable if the users of the certificates refuse to engage with them? as clearly described in
The only option is to send the CB a complaint (which will damage or destroy my relationship with my supplier) and involves the costs and risks I previously described but only a remote chance of any benefit. Why should I incur these costs and risks when the benefit that I can receive is so small and remote?
It should go without saying that engaging with a supplier CB should only happen after you've exhausted the direct communication with the supplier themselves. That being the case, I would think the relationship is already strained. Imagine your business represents a small percentage of the supplier sales; you have little leverage with that supplier. Their CB, on the other hand, should have leverage to make them change, if indeed, they are in the wrong and their system does not comply with the standard they are certified to.

CB's will NEVER be accountable if the users of their certification services give them an easy pass. It is that simple. https://www.iso.org/files/live/sites/isoorg/files/store/en/PUB100304.pdf pages 12 through 14.....

What to do if things go wrong? In the event that you are not happy with specific products or services you receive, you should first of all bring this to your supplier’s attention. You will typically do this via the normal technical and/or commercial communication channels that have been established. Your supplier is obliged to investigate your complaint and should take appropriate actions to avoid or reduce the chances of it happening again. If, however, you are dissatisfied with the overall performance of your supplier (if for example they continue to provide non-conforming products and services, do not address your complaints, or are not taking appropriate corrective action), then this is an indication of problems in their quality management system.

Depending on the responses you receive, you should be aware that you can escalate your complaint via the steps described below.

1. If your supplier has a QMS that meets ISO 9001 requirements, they are required to have established communication channels for monitoring customer satisfaction, obtaining customer feedback and dealing with complaints. You should make a formal complaint using these channels.

2. If you are still not satisfied with the response from your supplier, and if they are certified by an independent (third-party) certification body (registrar), you should bring the matter to the certification body’s attention. You can find the certification body’s name by looking at your supplier’s certificate. The certification body will investigate the problems during their surveillance audits of your supplier’s QMS, or, in critical cases, may decide to carry out an additional specific investigation.

3.If you do not receive a satisfactory response from the certification body, and if it is accredited (see Figure 1), you should complain to the relevant accreditation body. Details of any such accreditation will appear on your supplier’s ISO 9001 certificate. If you have difficulty in getting this information, you can consult the list of accreditation bodies that are members of the International Accreditation Forum on the IAF Website (www.iaf.nu).

4. If you feel that you have not received a satisfactory response from the accreditation body, and if it is a member of the International Accreditation Forum (see Figure 1), you can complain to the IAF (www.iaf.nu).
Yes, I know that would be time consuming and, likely, frustrating. Unfortunately, my recommendations for what is now known as the IAF Certsearch database to emulate the IAQG OASIS database were dismissed. Meanwhile the downward spiral, in terms of confidence in management system certificates speeds up.
 

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jmech

Trusted Information Resource
#23
It should go without saying that engaging with a supplier CB should only happen after you've exhausted the direct communication with the supplier themselves. That being the case, I would think the relationship is already strained. Imagine your business represents a small percentage of the supplier sales; you have little leverage with that supplier. Their CB, on the other hand, should have leverage to make them change, if indeed, they are in the wrong and their system does not comply with the standard they are certified to.
Would you want to continue to use a supplier if they've refused to fix an issue and you've had to get a CB to force them to fix it? Would the customer want to deal with you? There's a good chance the answer to both of these questions is "no".

How could CB's be accountable if the users of the certificates refuse to engage with them?
CBs have shown that they have no interest in being accountable and ABs and the IAF also refuse to hold them accountable, as [He Who Shall Not Be Named] has clearly demonstrated over many years. Users of certificates (customers of certified organizations) have no contractual relationship with their supplier's CB and have no leverage to force a CB to take any substantive actions in response to a complaint. As you yourself admit about going the complaint route:
Yes, I know that would be time consuming and, likely, frustrating.
Unfortunately, my recommendations for what is now known as the IAF Certsearch database to emulate the IAQG OASIS database were dismissed. Meanwhile the downward spiral, in terms of confidence in management system certificates speeds up.
An ISO 9001 version of the IAQG OASIS database may be what is needed. Realistically, I don't think there is enough unified demand for it ever to happen.

If someone wants to complain to a CB, go for it, but you should understand why many people don't bother.
 
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