Accredited registrars issuing non accredited certificates

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Staff member
Admin
#31
Sidney Vianna said:
If you SERIOUSLY think that organizations would prefer a non accredited certificate, over an accredited one, there is no point continuing this dialogue. If you read laurip's post about the organizations reaction when questioned about the non accredited status of their certs, it summarizes pretty much the level of ignorance on this issue.
I know of a small, family-owned calibration facility that chooses not to register, but to claim they conform to ISO 900X. Their rationale is that they do not choose the expense of registration process and its maintenance, but their systems are claimed just as sound. I can imagine a desire for limited services to unofficially audit as an access to expertise, but I don't like it because to me the pracice smacks of consultation--crosses the line.

A company that seeks a registrar's services absolutely should not be led, or even permitted to believe the "certificate" is different than expected. The registrar's contracting should be investigated and, if found to be vague or misleading, the registrar's accreditation should be revoked. :2cents:
 
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Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#32
Jennifer Kirley said:
A company that seeks a registrar's services absolutely should not be led, or even permitted to believe the "certificate" is different than expected. The registrar's contracting should be investigated and, if found to be vague or misleading, the registrar's accreditation should be revoked. :2cents:
I don't disagree; there should be truth in advertising and marketing, and in the case of non-registered certifications, there needs to be full disclosure.
 

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Staff member
Admin
#33
Wes Bucey said:
I was intrigued at the admission that even firms with "proper accreditation" of ISO 14000 had been caught doing things harmful to the environment and been fined (not "no name companies" - the list included a Ford Division.)

On the topic of "whose 'accreditation' is worthwhile" - it seems the folks who have created their own accreditation scheme have found a loophole in the system because the article emphasizes they are NOT ILLEGAL.
This can happen, and I'm sure it often does.

Just as registering to ISO9001 does not guarantee quality products and services, registering to 14001 does not guarantee there will be no emissions. 4.3.3 says "The objectives and targets shall be measurable, where practicable, and consistent with the environmental policy, including the commitments to prevention of pollution, to compliance with applicable legal requirements and with other requirements to which the organizaiton subscribes, and to continual improvement." Auditors may not be reviewing what the laws are during the registration process, and in fact a company can violate a law after promising not to.

As with quality systems, a failure to respond to failure is what demonstrates the system's breakdown--not that a failure occurred. Auditors, even insiders like me, may not see the actual data showing something has occurred. That's always been a vexing weakness of these ISO things.
 
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Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Staff member
Admin
#34
Jim Wynne said:
I don't disagree; there should be truth in advertising and marketing, and in the case of non-registered certifications, there needs to be full disclosure.
Yes, I really want to see better oversight of these registrars. This sounds like a very serious and upsetting problem.
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#35
Truth in advertising?

Let's be clear about several things:
  1. Sidney is an executive in one of the big (and good!) Registrars. Anything that demeans Registrars in general demeans him and his organization by association. This is just human nature trying to group "like" things together (eat one antelope - tastes good - ergo ALL antelopes taste good; OR partner gets bitten by a snake - dies - ergo ALL snake bites make you die!) No one says the logic is good - just that it exists.
  2. Similarly, organizations looking to make a profit almost always look to expand their markets. Some follow the "camel's nose in the tent" rule, reasoning that anything that gets them in the door of a customer gives them a wedge to expand business with that customer. Sidney's organization and others like it frequently give away free articles and offer free seminars to familiarize the marketplace with their services in the hope that market will turn to them as they need more services for which they will pay. Similarly, a Registrar may hope to "cross sell" the client to get the upgrade once the client learns some customers aren't happy with mere "compliance." Certainly, the upgrade will be less expensive than finding a completely new Registrar.
  3. There is some merit in a Registrar offering a "semi-official" stamp of approval on an organization's QMS. We frequently counsel folks who do NOT need official registration to follow a Standard and declare themselves "compliant." Having a third party double check their efforts and declare them "compliant" is only different in the paycheck from swapping internal auditors with the company across the street for the same kind of assurance. Consultants and "advisors" (like me!) have earned a lot of money from giving our personal blessing to the operations at clients. Why is it wrong for a registrar to do the same thing?
  4. There is one point I heartily agree upon and that is the matter of disclosure to the client and in exactly what is written upon the face of the document purporting "compliance." I think the registrar/consultant needs to have a plain language disclaimer signed by the client (and put on the certificate) which states unequivocally something like:
    ATTENTION: This certificate is similar to a "self-declaration" of compliance to the Standard listed. The Registrar named below did not perform the following tasks which would have made this a formal certificate of registration to that Standard:
    1. ________
    2. ________
    We may be able to convert this certificate to a certificate of registration rather than of compliance by performing those tasks for an additional fee.
    The primary additional value this formal certificate of registration would bring is a listing on a database maintained at [/COLOR][B] so others may check the...ergo his comment about Ken Lay and Enron.[/B]
 
C

Craig H.

#36
Sidney Vianna said:
Jim, I wholeheartedly agree with this question. Unfortunately, the vast majority of organizations have no formalized means to quantify gain$ or $avings for ANY of their practices. As most of us know, when an organization deploys a QMS and practice CI, they should experience bottom line benefit$, but very few can quantify in $ the actual gains/savings.
ISO 9001 certification, for the most part, is perceived as another "ticket to trade". Note however, despite many people's attempt to commoditize auditing, we are not at that level yet. Otherwise, you would not see a market with auditor day rates ranging from $800 to $1,800/auditor-day in the US.

Even if we could attribute the savings from, say, better workflow because of better control of blueprint changes, we cannot know the problems that having a robust system in place prevented. Sure, we can say that "paperwork nonconformances have dropped by X% over last year", but even with control charts to back that up, some mistakes are more expensive than others. A certain guy used to talk about the "unknown and unknowable". This is certainly along those lines.

And then there is the cost associated with having mad customers. Again, we can likely quantify returns and such, but...

Formalize all you like, the data will always be understated. IMHO, of course.
 
T

tarheels4 - 2007

#38
Randy said:
Did you hear the one about the traveling salesman and the farmer's daughter?:lmao:

:topic: Hijacked!
:topic:
I haven't heard that one. What is the punch line? I think it was hijacked early tho. I don't know why though, I don't like conflict. :eek:
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#39
Randy said:
Did you hear the one about the traveling salesman and the farmer's daughter?:lmao:

:topic: Hijacked!
I know dozens of jokes about traveling salesmen and farmers and their daughters. Even some about traveling saleswomen and farmers and their sons. All of them, including Randy's latest, are like the jokes about airplanes and submarines - either they are over my head or too deep for me!:rolleyes:
 
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