Advice on how to assess competency in the absence of academic qualifications?

[Paul Simpson]

Re: Advise on how to assess competency in absence of academic qualifications

I know I'm late to this thread - I have been watching and now it's dying down thought I'd add my !

Getting someone else to state that an individual is competent is fine but you need to consider a couple of other points:

• What are they competent in?
• How does the person who signs them off know they are competent

When you know the answer to the first question you will have defined the scope of their activity.

The second point is more difficult. If I am going to judge someone's competence I need to know enough about what they do to be able to make a judgement as to whether what they do is good or not. We have been going through this extremely painful process with auditor competence in certification bodies - another thread!

On a more positive note you can determine competence based on output. So - with your example of an individual who has been operating successfully over a period of years the evidence is in the lack of internal and external problems associated with the work they do. Assuming the evidence exists, of course!

Good luck at your audit.

 

[selena]

Re: Advise on how to assess competency in absence of academic qualifications

I know I'm late to this thread - I have been watching and now it's dying down thought I'd add my !



Getting someone else to state that an individual is competent is fine but you need to consider a couple of other points:

• What are they competent in?
• How does the person who signs them off know they are competent

When you know the answer to the first question you will have defined the scope of their activity.

The second point is more difficult. If I am going to judge someone's competence I need to know enough about what they do to be able to make a judgement as to whether what they do is good or not. We have been going through this extremely painful process with auditor competence in certification bodies - another thread!

On a more positive note you can determine competence based on output. So - with your example of an individual who has been operating successfully over a period of years the evidence is in the lack of internal and external problems associated with the work they do. Assuming the evidence exists, of course!

Good luck at your audit.

Thanks for your post Paul

We've pretty much narrowed down the skills etc needed for our employee to do his job. Our managing Director is also a part time lecturer in IT and has a MD in IT so he is pretty well placed to assess the skills of his employees.

With regards to providing evidence upon which to assess those skills, the output of his job is evidence in itself that he is competent to do his job i.e. the sofware, databases etc that he developes which are then quality checked prior to release to the client.

Thanks for your advice

 

[Jeff Frost]

Re: Advise on how to assess competency in absence of academic qualifications

Selena

A topic like this can grow quiet large and complicated but its time to take a step back and ask a few questions.

Does this individual perform work affect conformity to product requirements (ISO 9001:2008, 6.2.2)?

If the answer is yes then his or her training must meet the requirements of Clause 6.2.2. Use the requirements listed and create the records of education, training, skill and experience.

Has this individual demonstrate his or her ability to “apply knowledge and skills” (definition of competence from ISO 9000) needed to perform their function within your organization?

You have already supplied this answer in previous posts. The standard does not require that they be certified as a programmer only that they can perform the job to your organizations satisfaction based on your needs. You can demonstrate this by using performance appraisals, letter of recommendation, certificates issued for learning Microsoft programs, his or her résumé etc.

Your very own hiring process can show competency of this individual based on why you hired them and or promoted them into the current position.

 

[Coury Ferguson]

Re: Advise on how to assess competency in absence of academic qualifications

In my opinion, it really gets down to how the Organization defines their Skills and Competency requirements.

 

[Randy]

How would you go about proving the Noah was a competent boat builder? Noah had no formal maritime training, engineering or anything like that so what could you use as evidence?

The answer would to just cite the performance and ability of Noah in actually building a boat to the supplied spec's and the boat performing or having performed as required (you also take care of some 7.3 stuff here as well)

Competence is just the demonstrated "Ability" to "apply" knowledge and "skill"

Can you provide evidence that this person has the ability to apply the skills necessary to do the job? If you can the do it and quit making a very simple process so complicated.

The same thought process could be applied to a Kalahari Bushman...........Who do you'd think would be more competent in desert survival....Someone with a PhD in Survival who has never left the campus or someone who has actually been doing it for 40-50 years? How much formal education does that Bushman have? The Bushman may not look good on paper but I'll bet he'll find water, food and shade 1st.

 

[JaneB]

Re: Advise on how to assess competency in absence of academic qualifications

there is a difference between providing the education to learn the skills, and the actual competency. You can throw education at me all day long, that doesn't show that I am competent, only that I have taken the training required. IMHO, too many people are using education and competence as interchangeable terms. Education means you have been exposed to the fundamental knowledge required to do the job. Competence means that you have combined both the skills and the knowledge to actually perform the job well.

You're quite right, SteelMaiden. There is a difference between education, training and competency.

You are also right that too many people use them as interchangeable terms. They most definitely are not. Just because someone has been trained or educated in something does not mean they are actually competent to do it.

This is an example of where the person has developed the required competency themselves, but does not have the formal education. Education & training are only some ways of helping achieve this.

And Selena, you've been given excellent advice on how to cover it off in your system.

 

[Paul Simpson]

Re: Advise on how to assess competency in absence of academic qualifications

Where to start?

A topic like this can grow quiet large and complicated but its time to take a step back and ask a few questions.

Absolutely, Jeff. And aren't these the best topics?

We've pretty much narrowed down the skills etc needed for our employee to do his job. Our managing Director is also a part time lecturer in IT and has a MD in IT so he is pretty well placed to assess the skills of his employees.

With regards to providing evidence upon which to assess those skills, the output of his job is evidence in itself that he is competent to do his job i.e. the sofware, databases etc that he developes which are then quality checked prior to release to the client.

Looks like you've got everything pretty much nailed down - let us know how it goes!

You're quite right, SteelMaiden. There is a difference between education, training and competency.

You are also right that too many people use them as interchangeable terms. They most definitely are not. Just because someone has been trained or educated in something does not mean they are actually competent to do it.

Agreed. As has been aired on a whole load of other threads the tranistion to ISO IEC 17021 this year has been a nightmare because of the issue of competence. Not that there was ever any evidence of incompetence just that some ABs who shall remain nameless wanted CBs to document what was a demonstration of competence, how the CB went about assessing it and produce evidence of competence for a range of technical areas.

This is an example of where the person has developed the required competency themselves, but does not have the formal education. Education & training are only some ways of helping achieve this.

Again agreed - there is also the issue of deliberately allowing people to operate in areas where they are not competent - as part of their own personal development. If you think about every job you have ever gone for your education, qualifications and experience are indicators of competence and you go through an interview where the organization assesses your aptitude and makes a judgement about your likelihood to 'become' competent but it is only when you have joined, had the induction, on the job training etc., etc. that you magically cross a threshold and are competent.

How would you go about proving the Noah was a competent boat builder? Noah had no formal maritime training, engineering or anything like that so what could you use as evidence?

The answer would to just cite the performance and ability of Noah in actually building a boat to the supplied spec's and the boat performing or having performed as required (you also take care of some 7.3 stuff here as well)

Competence is just the demonstrated "Ability" to "apply" knowledge and "skill"

Can you provide evidence that this person has the ability to apply the skills necessary to do the job? If you can the do it and quit making a very simple process so complicated.

The same thought process could be applied to a Kalahari Bushman...........Who do you'd think would be more competent in desert survival....Someone with a PhD in Survival who has never left the campus or someone who has actually been doing it for 40-50 years? How much formal education does that Bushman have? The Bushman may not look good on paper but I'll bet he'll find water, food and shade 1st.

In your own inimitable fashion, Randy you make a good point. IF only everyone would just:

... do it and quit making a very simple process so complicated.

Definitely not aimed at Selena but there are many others to whom this could apply! But then again they're probably not visiting the cove!

 

[Sorin]

1.How would you go about proving the Noah was a competent boat builder? Noah had no formal maritime training, engineering or anything like that so what could you use as evidence?

The answer would to just cite the performance and ability of Noah in actually building a boat to the supplied spec's and the boat performing or having performed as required (you also take care of some 7.3 stuff here as well)

2.Competence is just the demonstrated "Ability" to "apply" knowledge and "skill"

3.Can you provide evidence that this person has the ability to apply the skills necessary to do the job? If you can the do it and quit making a very simple process so complicated.

4.The same thought process could be applied to a Kalahari Bushman...........Who do you'd think would be more competent in desert survival....Someone with a PhD in Survival who has never left the campus or someone who has actually been doing it for 40-50 years? How much formal education does that Bushman have? The Bushman may not look good on paper but I'll bet he'll find water, food and shade 1st.

1.Who is this Noah? I did a search on this board members list and did not found him/her.

2.The keyword here is "knowledge". One can have the best skills and application on this side of the galaxy in busting nuts open. But without the knowledge, one is just a monkey trying to bust nuts open with a microscope.

3.Again: Who's watching the watchers?
Assessing one's skills and competence without having the necessary knowledge it's putting the company in a weird situation.
Case in point: this initial topic. The person in question is doing databases (among other things). And it seems they are working. I saw some pretty good stuff made by people with no formal training in IT (and I am able to do some nice database programming - all learned by myself). But being faced with a real programmer I realized that all the things I was so proud about were like building a soapbox on wheels while the other person - using the same ressources was building a Formula 1 car.
It's a question of perspective.
After all this is why companies are certified by registrars and are not certifying themselves.

4.You don't really think the bushman was born with the necessary knowledge. He had a formal training from the elders bushmen. He did not learned by himself. He was trained (formal and on the job) in surviving/tracking/etc by those that had the knowledge.

______________________________________

I know it's easier to get the person in question assesed on a internal base (it saves a lot of money after all) but, IMHO, there associated risks that are not worth that self-assesing.

My 2(depreciated)c...

 

[selena]

Just a quick note before I sign off for the xmas break.

I wanted to say a big thank you to everyone who offered advice and support concerning my post on competency assessment.

I took your advice on board and implemented it.

We had our ISO certification assessment yesterday and have been assessed as ISO 9001 compliant. One of the areas we were audited on was competency assessment and we passed with flying colours.

Am overjoyed, relieved and grateful for everyone's help.

Wishing everyone a great xmas and happy new year

 

[Ted Schmitt]

CONGRATULATIONS Selena !!

That´s a nice xmas present to receive !!