Aerospace Registrar Problems - Starting Over?

[Oldrice]

We were audited back in Dec of 2011 for Rev C.
Something happened. I wasn't there but I know the auditors left to return in Feb. I was immediately brought in and consequently we were audited again in Feb. We received 8 minors. Design and develpment, Config - somewhat of a learning curve for the current ERP system and the management being run by it. Lol.

Well, we sent in our responses - 3 weeks later we were told to have them resigned. I'm not supposed to be the signer. No biggie, reprint, sign and scan - three weeks later auditor 1 says there's containment issues. Ok, restate our containment and three weeks later we're told one of the NCRs wasn't written "correctly" and that they felt it should be written "tis way". Ok. same day turnaround and yet again, three weeks later, "I'm not happy with this one"... no mention of the other ones...

Well at the end of April Auditor 1 told us they highly recommend we request an extension. We Submit responses and ask that "if the responses are not acceptable, then to consider this a formal request for an extension" we received a reply immediately stating we had exhausted all of our extensions. Yet we had never asked for one yet. Upon replying Audor 1 admitted she mixed us up with another client.

It's been over 30 days since then and ... nothing.

I was to fire the firm on the grounds we're not receiving a fair and objective audit. And I believe they have already been paid.

It's friggin June 4rth already and this apparently reputable firm has not returned my calls or emails to their Aerospace Accounts Manager, the company Account Manager nor the auditors themselves.

Can I call another firm in and start over?
Can I charge the first firm forall costs? or can we have our money back?

What are my options?

This is not my first rodeo but it's my first time with an issue like this.

Oldrice

 

[Wes Bucey]

Re: Starting Over?

Sure sounds like a major SNAFU. I'd try escalating the issue higher up the corporate ladder (president or CEO) at the CB with co-signature of one of your organization's top guys to underline the seriousness your organization places on this breach of communication. I'd use certified mail or Fedex to communicate.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

Can I call another firm in and start over?

Yes, you can, but be aware that, due to limited supply of AS resources at the moment, vis a vis the transition process, you would probably have a long wait to have your audit scheduled.

Can I charge the first firm for all costs? or can we have our money back?

Look at your contract, but I doubt it. I find a little weird that registrants would pay registrars BEFORE services are rendered.

What are my options?

• You can escalate the issue to the top management, in the registrar organization. After all, according to ISO 17021, the CB must have a quality system as well.
• You can lodge a complaint with the Accreditation Body who approves this CB, either directly or via the OASIS feedback to the AB, cc'ing the CB (or not).
• You can threaten to publicize their name in a public forum. That tends to get their attention

PS Do yourself a favor. Check in OASIS if the auditors who did the audit, back in December had their AS9100:2009 approval, prior to that date. Some CB's have assigned auditors that were not transitioned to Rev. C of AS9100 to perform transition audits in the second half of 2011. Some scrutiny is being applied and horror stories (such as yours) are popping up.

Once again, CB business models, ethics and professionalism vary significantly (in my estimation) and most registrants are unaware of such facts. Too many times CB selection criteria is faulty, from the get go.

 

[Wes Bucey]

Once again, CB business models, ethics and professionalism vary significantly (in my estimation) and most registrants are unaware of such facts. Too many times CB selection criteria is faulty, from the get go.

If we can't expect uniformity among the folks appointed [CB/registrar] to register and certify our organizations, how can we possibly expect uniformity among the registrants? Do we point the finger at individual registrants or at the registrars?

Seems to me like a horrible parody of Deming's Red Beads where the Willing Workers [registrants] fail because the Supervisors [registrars] have set an impossible process - either:

1. mission creep of adding superfluous "rules" and micromanagement, or
2. incredible laxity and indifference, even abandonment

Of course, even the old Military Standards were subject to the same sort of disparity among the inspectors appointed to teach and monitor the Standard. Has there been any real improvement toward uniformity of process and product quality since the abandonment of Military Standards in favor of International Standards such as ISO or SAE ?

 

[Sidney Vianna]

If we can't expect uniformity among the folks appointed [CB/registrar] to register and certify our organizations, how can we possibly expect uniformity among the registrants? Do we point the finger at individual registrants or at the registrars?

ISO 9001:2008 0.1 stipulates:

It is not the intent of this International Standard to imply uniformity in the structure of quality management systems or uniformity of documentation

There should be no expectation of uniformity. Only a naive (or ignorant) individual would believe that conformance with management system standards would lead to uniform levels of performance.

 

[Oldrice]

I contacted the account representative and she seemed very concerned, stated that she would get back to me and never did. I understand the wait will be significant, and since our cert would have expired June 1st, we're willing to fire the current auditors and go with another. In the meantime though, (I'm thinking around 6 mo) we'll just continue on and strive for beyond compliance until we're "certified".

I've been on both sides of the fence for roughly 30 years (wow.) and I've never seen or experienced anything even remotely like this.

December 5th to June 5th? Really?

Pushing for a conf call today with the Top Management of both companies.
We'll see.

Oldrice-

 

[Wes Bucey]

ISO 9001:2008 0.1 stipulates: There should be no expectation of uniformity. Only a naive (or ignorant) individual would believe that conformance with management system standards would lead to uniform levels of performance.

naive or not, it is the expectation of OEMs throughout the world which have mandated registration for their supply chains, though I might argue the primary reason was to reduce the OEM expense of customer audits, using the specious argument of "uniformity" in the supply chain when all are "registered and certified."

Also, added in edit, I don't recall the statement "There should be no expectation of uniformity." appearing in the sales pitches I've heard from a number of pitches made by registrar sales folk when talking to OEMs.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

naive or not, it is the expectation of OEMs throughout the world which have mandated registration for their supply chains, though I might argue the primary reason was to reduce the OEM expense of customer audits, using the specious argument of "uniformity" in the supply chain when all are "registered and certified."

A knowledgeable customer mandating suppliers to attain certification to a QMS standard such as ISO 9001 intend to have MINIMUM (not uniform) levels of performance, in terms of QMS robustness. Just like mandating drivers licenses don't guarantee uniform levels of driving performance.

Also, added in edit, I don't recall the statement "There should be no expectation of uniformity." appearing in the sales pitches I've heard from a number of pitches made by registrar sales folk when talking to OEMs.

Many sales people selling ISO 9001 certification have no idea of what they are selling and are painfully ignorant on the technical aspects of the standard.

 

[Wes Bucey]

A knowledgeable customer mandating suppliers to attain certification to a QMS standard such as ISO 9001 intend to have MINIMUM (not uniform) levels of performance, in terms of QMS robustness. Just like mandating drivers licenses don't guarantee uniform levels of driving performance.

Yep. The OEMs seem to aim for the "Least Common Denominator" otherwise known as the "absolute minimum of competence and efficiency."

Many sales people selling ISO 9001 certification have no idea of what they are selling and are painfully ignorant on the technical aspects of the standard.

Well, when we talk about incompetent workers in most industries, we Demingites tend to put the onus on the managers who select those workers, oversee their training, and render a decision on their competence. Are we allowed to place the same onus on managers at Registrars?

 

[Sidney Vianna]

Are we allowed to place the same onus on managers at Registrars?

No, not really. Registrars are a special category of service providers impervious to the expectations of the business world....

Many registrars sell certificates. For them, the caliber of the people they employ is irrelevant. Some of us provide confidence, instead. Draw your own conclusions.