AIAG 4th Edition Capability Study and Gage R&R Requirements

D

djtodd27

#1
I have been doing PPAP's for this company for about 8 yrs now. Just the other day the Quality Manager contacted me to reject a PPAP because there was no capability study or R&R. My response was there was no cpk or characteristics on teh print. The response was I need to do an R&R on all gages used on the control plan and check a characteristic to make sure our process is cabable but no cpk was given. When looking in our PPAP foruth edition book it states to reference the MSA reference manual (we don't have it). My question is "Is this a true statement and I need to R&R all the gages and capability study this. That is alot of work for 1 person. Another question is there P.O stated a level 2 PPAP what does that really mean? They also do not supply a bulk materials list on what they require.
Todd
 
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Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#2
I have been doing PPAP's for this company for about 8 yrs now. Just the other day the Quality Manager contacted me to reject a PPAP because there was no capability study or R&R. My response was there was no cpk or characteristics on teh print. The response was I need to do an R&R on all gages used on the control plan and check a characteristic to make sure our process is cabable but no cpk was given. When looking in our PPAP foruth edition book it states to reference the MSA reference manual (we don't have it). My question is "Is this a true statement and I need to R&R all the gages and capability study this. That is alot of work for 1 person. Another question is there P.O stated a level 2 PPAP what does that really mean? They also do not supply a bulk materials list on what they require.
Todd
This is a murky area insofar as PPAP is concerned. First, ISO/TS 16949 says this about MSA:
[FONT=Arial,Bold]
[FONT=Arial,Bold]7.6.1 Measurement system analysis[/FONT]
[/FONT]Statistical studies shall be conducted to analyse the variation present in the results of each type of measuring and test equipment system. This requirement shall apply to measurement systems referenced in the control plan. The analytical methods and acceptance criteria used shall conform to those in customer reference manuals on
measurement systems analysis. Other analytical methods and acceptance criteria may be used if approved by the customer.


The customer is asking you to comply with TS 16949 requirements, not specifically PPAP requirements. If your customer has never been specific about this in purchase orders (including by reference), you need to get the requirements clarified.


The PPAP manual is now and always has been muddy on the issue. It says (on page 6 of the 4th edition):
The organization shall have applicable Measurement System Analysis studies, e.g., gage R&R, bias, linearity, stability, for all new or modified gages, measurement, and test equipment. (See the Measurement Systems Analysis reference manual).
[Emphasis and punctuation errors in the original)

What is generally expected is that a PPAP package will include capability and MSA reports for special characteristics. Some customers expect both even when there are no special characteristics. In those cases the dimension or characteristic to study is usually left to the supplier.

I've never heard of a customer asking for MSA reports for all control plan gages/measurement devices.

Note also that if your customer specified a Level 2 submission, they also should have specified which elements (in addition to the PSW) were to be submitted. The supplier is still responsibile for the elements not submitted unless those elements are explicitly waived by the customer.

If you're expected to do AIAG-compliant PPAP submissions, you had better get the manuals--PPAP, APQP, FMEA, MSA and SPC. You also need to clearly understand your customers' requirements in this regard.
 
D

djtodd27

#3
The real kicker in my opinion is that the end user is Honda. I thought AIAG was the american standard. Would Honda follow the AIAG? So the MSA is more a TS not an ISO thing correct? We are ISO 9001:2008 certified. Our customer is TS certified. I have to meet with them and tell them why I never submitted the studies to them.
 

bobdoering

Stop X-bar/R Madness!!
Trusted Information Resource
#4
The real kicker in my opinion is that the end user is Honda. I thought AIAG was the american standard. Would Honda follow the AIAG? So the MSA is more a TS not an ISO thing correct? We are ISO 9001:2008 certified. Our customer is TS certified. I have to meet with them and tell them why I never submitted the studies to them.
Maybe they don't....but maybe they expect MSA and capability, anyway, as a Customer Specific Requirement.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#5
The real kicker in my opinion is that the end user is Honda. I thought AIAG was the american standard. Would Honda follow the AIAG? So the MSA is more a TS not an ISO thing correct? We are ISO 9001:2008 certified. Our customer is TS certified. I have to meet with them and tell them why I never submitted the studies to them.
If your customer makes it a specific requirement in the contract that you must chant voodoo incantations over the parts before shipping them, that's what you have to do if you accept the contract. The question is what the customer specifically asked for. If, as you say, they specified a Level 2 submission but didn't specify which elements to submit, that question should have been asked of the customer before proceeding (i.e., before accepting the PO).

Right now, what I would tell the customer is that the requirements weren't clearly communicated, if that's indeed what the problem was. Have the PO that specifies Level 2 in hand, along with a copy of the PPAP manual and show them where it says (on page 17), for Level 2, "Warrant with product samples and limited supporting data submitted to the customer."
 

howste

Thaumaturge
Super Moderator
#6
I have to meet with them and tell them why I never submitted the studies to them.
Jim is absolutely right. Before you go, make sure you research and identify all contract requirements. If they didn't specify the requirements that they're calling you on the carpet for, then tactfully tell them that their poor communication is the root cause.

Be sure to look for the voodoo incantation in the contract as well. :notme:
 

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Staff member
Admin
#9
I love the part about the Voodoo incantations. :applause::lmao:

This discussion is timely because I am auditing MSA and confronting a desire to get rid of the part about Bias based on bias being taken care of as part of calibration and the reaction path for SPC violations. But when I read the MSA Manual, and see Bias listed in PPAP manual on page 6 (2.2.8) I do not think we have that freedom. I am nw going through the channels to see what our customers have said about our being required to use the AIAG manuals. I know it's a TS expectation, but communicating with my engineering customers requires rather more than saying "The TS auditors expect it" :rolleyes:
 
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