AIAG's Control Plan Reference Manual - GONE from TS 16949 as a referenced document?

[SteelWoman]

Got a question: I was reviewing the part of the TS standard dealing with Control Plans and noticed for the first time (ya' look at something long enough sometimes you see it with new eyes) that while it makes many references to the Annex A page in the back, which outlines the basic requirements expected in a control plan, no where does it mention the Sacred Blue Book on Control Plans (the Advanced Product Quality Planning and control Plan/APQP book). My question is this: does that mean I can't be audited to that book, which is NOT referenced specifically in TS? I'm asking 'cause in our last TS audit one of the auditors was quoting line and verse of the Sacred Blue Book, but looking at this anew I'm thinking he really can't? If it's not specifically referenced in TS and TS provides it's own one page outline of what a Control Plan is supposed to be (Annex A), then can I be held responsible for every jot and tittle in the Blue Book?

 

[Teresa1000]

Ford's Customer-Specific Requirements states "see... APQP for Control Plan requirements." Whose your customer?

 

[cbearden]

You can only be audited to the TS standard itself and the PPAP blue book.
Everything else is for reference only......yes, that means the MSA book as well.

ZeissUser

 

[Howard Atkins]

I think that in fact according to QS the handbooks were also not auditable.

 

[Marc]

They were not per se auditable but they were referenced.

 

[SteelWoman]

Ford's Customer-Specific Requirements states "see... APQP for Control Plan requirements." Whose your customer?

We're only Tier 2, no Tier 1 automotive customers and we haven't had any Tier 1 requirements pressed down to us.

 

[Teresa1000]

We're only Tier 2, no Tier 1 automotive customers and we haven't had any Tier 1 requirements pressed down to us.

If your Tier 1 customer does not require you to use APQP, then I don't think your auditor can hold your feet to the fire on the "Sacred Blue Book".

 

[engjane]

I too am pretty certain that unless its specified by a customer, you can have whatever APQP, approval and MSA systems you like as long as you show you have a process for those items which works for you and meets anything TS does say (like knowing stability or performing validation for instance).

It just so happens we all dont want to invent the wheel again so we use the format that is most standard, namely AIAG.

Cool huh?

So go forth and do what you like (relatively speaking that is)

 

[Howard Atkins]

APQP does not appear in the standard apart from the reference in the note to 7.1

NOTE Some customers refer to project management or advanced product quality planning as a means to achieve product
realization. Advanced product quality planning embodies the concepts of error prevention and continual improvement as
contrasted with error detection, and is based on a multidisciplinary approach.

PPAP- all that is required is to use a customer recognized procedure

MSA again a method conforming to customer reference manuals, or other methods approved by customers.

The AIAG handbooks are not been referenced even in the bibliography.

 

[vanputten]

Would people be willing to quote their sources? Where is it stated that....
"You can only be audited to the TS standard itself and the PPAP blue book.
Everything else is for reference only......yes, that means the MSA book as well."

Thank you, Dirk