All Internal Audits on 1 day once a year?

T

tschones

#1
Has anyone heard of an organization that performs all of their internal audits during a single time each year to minimize the impact on the organization? I have some people internally who say they have.
 
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A

Al Dyer

#3
Many do a "once a year" which usually complies. In the real world an, internal audit is just a fancy word for continually monitoring the system, and acting upon inconsistancies.

Al...
 
B

Bill Pflanz

#4
Since I am not actively involved with ISO certifications and many of the questions are related to the automotive standards, I generally don't contribute to these ISO discussions. But this question about once a year audits perplexes me as a quality professional.

Outside of the just meeting a requirement to keep your certification, why would any quality professional want to do one audit per year? If done properly, audits should help verify that your management system is effective and could contribute to identifying ways to improve your processes.

I would be interested in knowing what value, if any, is being received from the ISO audits outside of just doing them to keep your certification.

Bill Pflanz
 
#5
tschones said:
Has anyone heard of an organization that performs all of their internal audits during a single time each year to minimize the impact on the organization? I have some people internally who say they have.
In all our units in India (nine ISO-14001 certificates), in our HQ in Hong Kong and wherever I am called to carry out the ISO-14001 EMS internal audit, we carry out the audit in one or two days. The audit programme starts with an Audit plan published at least 15 days before the audit date. The physical audit starts with an opening meeting with the CEO and the Management Team and ends with a closing meeting with the same participants. The audit programme is as per ISO-19011 (earlier ISO-14011) and the auditors are qualified as per ISO-19011 (earlier ISO-14012). The audit report is published within about a week or ten days. We have been following this procedure for more than eight years and I find that this procedure brings in the necessary seriousness to the audit process, from both auditors' and auditee's angle.

Ramakrishnan
 
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RoxaneB

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#6
Evolution is a factor...

Why does an organization do Internal Audits? Hopefully with the intent of improvement and to correct discrepancies appropriately. If they're just being done for that piece of paper on the wall, then by all means develop an audit schedule as you see fit...and if this means one audit in one day, so be it.

We started off with several Internal Audits a year back in 1997...with time, hard work, patience, and dedication, our Business Management System has evolved to the point where one Internal Audit a year is sufficient (excluding the off-site Internal Audits of our Sales Department). Two years ago, our Internal Audit took 4 days. Last year, it took 3 days. This year (next week), the schedule is showing it to take 2 days. With 16 processes to be audited, I do not believe it can be condensed any shorter than that.

If the findings are less than satisfactory, additional Internal Audits will be scheduled for later this year...but the plan is to stick to one.

On the other hand, our EMS is not as mature, even though it piggy-backs significantly off of our ISO 9001 System. In the areas where there are direct links between the two, there are minimal (if any) problems. In the areas where it is soley ISO 14001 focused, that's where we find Nonconformances and Opportunities for Improvement. Based on the findings, once a month a General Awareness Audit is conducted in a scheduled Department...but the Internal Audit of our ISO 14001 System is conducted once a year in 3 days.

The maturity of the System is something that should be considered when developing your audit schedule. If it's a new system and there are still many discrepancies of serious impact, you may wish to have Internal Audits scheduled on a more frequent basis...if you want more than just a piece of paper on the wall. As time passes and the System evolves into a more mature and established state, findings become less severe and Internal Audits can become less frequent. You'll find you'll assess the state of the System more on the data from your measuring and monitoring techniques.
 

The Taz!

Quite Involved in Discussions
#7
Roxy,

You have met (and I'm not surprised at all) the intent of the standard relative to continual improvement of your processes. You (and your company) have done exactly what you should have. Not too many companies are there from what I have heard, read and seen.

Scheduling subsequent audits when audit results warrant it is a requirement of the standard, and it is also good practice.

Multiple audits are warranted when a system is either new, or shows signs deterioration.

Bottom line, determine where you are, and audit the system when necessary. This brings up an interesting point. . . would you audit (inspect/verify) a product once a year? The customer wants and pays for good product and in order to get paid for producing the product, and keeping the customer satisfied, you "inspect/verify/audit" it as frequently as necessary.

The customer does not pay for your QMS. . . your company does, and to that end, you want to get your money's worth. If the QMS (or BMS in your case) is efficient and effective, you do not need to audit/verify/inspect it as often. When you have rejects, you need to look at it more often. Sorta like a stable and in control manufacturing process. JMHO
 

RoxaneB

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#9
The Taz! said:
You have met (and I'm not surprised at all) the intent of the standard relative to continual improvement of your processes. You (and your company) have done exactly what you should have. Not too many companies are there from what I have heard, read and seen.
I'm blushing! :eek:

The Taz! said:
Scheduling subsequent audits when audit results warrant it is a requirement of the standard, and it is also good practice.
That's something I love about our Management Committee. We feel the System has evolved to the point where a once-a-year audit is effective and, bonus, it minimizes the impact on the employees. However, if the results are not up to par, Management is the first in line requesting more audits.

The Taz! said:
Multiple audits are warranted when a system is either new, or shows signs deterioration.
Precisely! Our EMS attempted to do just one Internal Audit from the beginning, thinking since it piggy-backed off of the 9K System, everything would be fine. Results indicated otherwise in those areas where the links between 9K and 14K were minimal...thus resulting in an OFI to conduct General Awareness Audits once a month for a year to not only ascertain if the level of awareness was improving, but to also serve as a form of communication.

The Taz! said:
Bottom line, determine where you are, and audit the system when necessary. This brings up an interesting point. . . would you audit (inspect/verify) a product once a year? The customer wants and pays for good product and in order to get paid for producing the product, and keeping the customer satisfied, you "inspect/verify/audit" it as frequently as necessary.
In a way, this is done at our location. We have fabrication standards in the Melt Shop and product characteristics in the Rolling Mill. When a Customer requests a product, they request a particular grade and a particular shape. In both areas of the process, product is tested to ensure it matches the criteria of grade/shape outlined on the fab standard/prod. char. sheets.

The fabrication standards and product characteristics are reviewed annually to ensure that we are still within ASTM/CSA/other specifications (i.e., our tolerances are tighter than those given by ASTM/CSA/etc.).

We also have process audits conducted...to ensure that people are using the right rolls, guides, tools, processes, etc.

The Taz! said:
The customer does not pay for your QMS. . . your company does, and to that end, you want to get your money's worth. If the QMS (or BMS in your case) is efficient and effective, you do not need to audit/verify/inspect it as often. When you have rejects, you need to look at it more often. Sorta like a stable and in control manufacturing process. JMHO
Sounds like Root Cause Analysis to me...which is done when the Key Indicators or triggers show a process out of control.

Don't get me wrong. I like Internal Audits and believe that they have much to offer to the improvement of the System....and sometimes even the Process. However, tools such as Key Indicators and SPC, have much more to offer to the immediate control and improvement of a Process and Product.

If a Process has gone out of control and is resulting in nonconforming Product being generated, our System calls for tools such as Abnormality Reports or Nonconformance Reports to be initiated....which may lead to a Root Cause Analysis being conducted or Ishikawa. An Interal Audit would verify that the proper (paperwork) Process was followed to get the (manufacutring) Process back under control.
 
#10
From 9K2K para 8.2.2 "The organization shall conduct internal AUDITS at planned INTERVALS . . . . . "

IMO any CB would have a difficult time approving an audit process that only happens one day a year.

As for TS2 . . . not possible.
 
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