Alternative Internal Audit Methods - Seeking Enlightenment

C

CliffK

#1
Has anyone used, or know of, an alternative to the traditional internal audit methodology?

I am helping an organization prune their quality system of thirteen years' and three different quality managers' accretion of redundant and/or misaligned artifacts.

Their internal audit system, which is mature and solid in the traditional sense, seems to be an inviting target for makeover. The system is expensive and low on the bang-for-the-buck scale. There must be a better way of aligning the necessary verifications and evidence collecting with the day-to-day management and production activities.

I've been mulling this over for several days now, and I'm stuck.

Can anybody offer a spark of insight? Maybe a light tap with the clue stick to loosen the cement inside my noggin?

Thanks,
Cliff Kachinske
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor
G

gardnere

#2
Cliff, I do not know what your aiming for relative to an alternative form of auditing. However, we successfully used the MS product NetMeeting to review records within an organization where the auditee was located outside the auditor's facility. Within this form of auditing, travel and other business experiences, can be eliminated by reviewing auditee records from a "remote" location. Best of luck in seeking auditing alternatives.
 
#3
Cliff:

What a great opportunity! Most internal audit systems emulate the external audit 'story' which has been the basis of auditor training materials for about 20 years. Often the training re-inforces much which is unnecessary/inappropriate in an internal audit. Often auditor behaviours, which are modelled after external auditors, cause friction within the organization. So, it's time for a change.

One of the weakest areas of internal audits, IMHO, (and based on over 20 years of internal audit experience) is the planning. Instead of operating a calendar of audits which 'push' audits on management, (but which 3rd party auditors often demand) the schedule for audits should be flexible and take input from your management team - a 'pull' system. Did you know that that's what ISO 9004 actually guides us to do? Strange, Huh?
 
B

Benjamin28

#4
Perhaps you could elaborate on how the current system is functioning, what makes it expensive, why is there little return on investment? That information will allow us to better provide suggestions.
 

ScottK

Not out of the crisis
Staff member
Super Moderator
#6
Cliff, I do not know what your aiming for relative to an alternative form of auditing. However, we successfully used the MS product NetMeeting to review records within an organization where the auditee was located outside the auditor's facility. Within this form of auditing, travel and other business experiences, can be eliminated by reviewing auditee records from a "remote" location. Best of luck in seeking auditing alternatives.
Does that work for you?
We have another plant that has been ISO9001 registered since it was acquired and we tried to claim that their QA/QC processes were audited remotely (by me) via a virtual meeting with the location QA Director.

It didn't fly with their registrar (DNV) and they got an observation during the last re-registration audit.
 
G

gardnere

#7
Thanks for the feedback. Our company, from which I initially retired, performed the remote auditing, by using NetMeeting, and the ISO registrar did not have any problem with that course of action. In fact, that company, was highly-tuned to quality, process improvement, and other quality - industry oriented models, and achieved great success. It would be interesting to know why the registrar (DNV, other) did not accept that approach. Perhaps that approach was too creative for the DNV auditor team. Currently, I am engaged as a lead auditor with a competitive ISO registrar and do not see any problem with this alternative. In fact, the NetMeeting approach and other creative approaches were brought up at a recent meeting with a director from ANAB, and he saw no problem with this approach as well. Good luck seeking internal audit alternatives.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
C

CliffK

#8
Thanks for the responses, everybody.

what makes it expensive, why is there little return on investment?
Very good question. It's expensive because it's totally outside the value stream. Who would do this if ISO 9001 didn't require it?

I claim the return on investment is low because the scheduling and planning is arbitrary and because the audit findings seldom contribute to solving the company's real problems.

Andy's points are right on:

Often the training re-inforces much which is unnecessary/inappropriate in an internal audit. Often auditor behaviours, which are modelled after external auditors, cause friction within the organization. So, it's time for a change.
One of the weakest areas of internal audits, IMHO, (and based on over 20 years of internal audit experience) is the planning. Instead of operating a calendar of audits which 'push' audits on management, (but which 3rd party auditors often demand) the schedule for audits should be flexible and take input from your management team - a 'pull' system.
What we need is a system where the objective audit evidence comes out of the organization's normal operations, one where the findings and corrections actually help solve business problems.

Cliff Kachinske
 

Hershal

Metrologist-Auditor
Staff member
Super Moderator
#9
At my previous employer, I was Corporate Lead.....two of our facilities used an approach we termed "bite size" audits.....a specific process or part of a process, a specific procedure, or similar.....all scheduled, and start to finish the audit only required about 2 hours.....many more audits of course, but the appraoc worked well for them and they were able to keep the intrusion and disruption low, and find many improvements.

Hershal
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
K PDCA cycle and ISO processes alternative model Quality Management System (QMS) Manuals 14
M Production approval testing - Alternative ideas for Validation Reliability Analysis - Predictions, Testing and Standards 4
M Informational US FDA – MDR Data Files – Alternative Summary Report Data Since 1999 Available Medical Device and FDA Regulations and Standards News 0
A Alternative to keeping hard copy records that is 21 CFR part 11 compliant Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 0
H GHTF and IMDRF - Alternative for the STED format EU Medical Device Regulations 5
E Updating DHF (Design History File) to include Alternative Component 21 CFR Part 820 - US FDA Quality System Regulations (QSR) 2
Q Management Review - Alternative methods Management Review Meetings and related Processes 20
P Alternative To PT/ILC (Inter-Laboratory Comparison) Requirement General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 3
E Looking for an alternative to a decade box that is unavailable everywhere right now. General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 7
T Corrective Action Reports - Alternative Formats Nonconformance and Corrective Action 1
P Alternative Procedures to DOA: How to start? EASA and JAA Aviation Standards and Requirements 3
V Alternative to Microsoft Office - Open Office vs. Google Docs After Work and Weekend Discussion Topics 26
somashekar Regulations on Alternative Medicines and Therapy Other Medical Device Regulations World-Wide 1
S ADOA (Alternative Procedures to Design Organisation Approval) Procedures EASA and JAA Aviation Standards and Requirements 1
R TS 16949 Alternative Risk Assessment FMEA, Apendix C Requirements FMEA and Control Plans 5
B Supplier Categorisation - Alternative Systems for Categorisation of Suppliers Supplier Quality Assurance and other Supplier Issues 4
Q Alternative QC tests Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 1
J Quality Assurance for Complementary and Alternative Medicine (CAM) Hospitals, Clinics & other Health Care Providers 4
Y An alternative title (term) for Quality Policy? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 20
P A slightly alternative Turtle Diagram Process Maps, Process Mapping and Turtle Diagrams 1
M Alternative term for Nonconformance - Finding Nonconformance and Corrective Action 21
A Alternative Selection Excel .xls Template - ISO 9001 and CMMI (DAR Process Area) Excel .xls Spreadsheet Templates and Tools 1
H Achiever Plus - Are there alternative products that are better than Achiever Plus? Quality Assurance and Compliance Software Tools and Solutions 5
M Alternative to AVG - ClamWin After Work and Weekend Discussion Topics 13
F Seven Quality Tools diagrams and charts software - Excel alternative? Quality Tools, Improvement and Analysis 9
T AWS or Other Alternative Welding Spec for HSLA 590 Steel (2mm thick)? Misc. Quality Assurance and Business Systems Related Topics 1
J Run Charts and Alternative Process Control Parameters Statistical Analysis Tools, Techniques and SPC 5
S Telecommuting as an alternative to relocation Career and Occupation Discussions 3
G Chlorine dioxide for medical use - Alternative for the disinfectants? ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 5
C Another Browser Alternative After Work and Weekend Discussion Topics 10
S Alternative to polishing aluminum castings that we machine and polish Manufacturing and Related Processes 9
Marc Digital Universe - Wikipedia alternative aims to be 'PBS of the Web' After Work and Weekend Discussion Topics 1
Claes Gefvenberg What about alternative fuels? Coffee Break and Water Cooler Discussions 74
R ROHS and Prop 65 regulated materials: Alternative to the mdsystems database? RoHS, REACH, ELV, IMDS and Restricted Substances 13
Marc Outlook and Viri - An Alternative After Work and Weekend Discussion Topics 0
G Unbiased Estimators for Sigma? Is 's' an alternative to RBar/d2? Statistical Analysis Tools, Techniques and SPC 7
M Sample size of SQRT(n)+1 an alternative to AQL? AQL - Acceptable Quality Level 2
Q ISO 9001-2015 Internal audit finding Internal Auditing 12
lanley liao How to understand this words that the planning of internal audit shall take into consideration the results of previous audits? Oil and Gas Industry Standards and Regulations 10
A Add MDSAP to Internal Audit Schedule Medical Device Related Regulations 0
J IATF 16949 Internal Audit question - Auditor's responsibility Internal Auditing 6
M ISO13485:2016, MDSAP and Internal Audits ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 8
S IATF 16949 Internal Audit Example IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 7
R AS9100D internal audit checklist or ISO 9001 2015 to AS9100 D AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 2
S Would this be a second site for the purposes of internal and third party audits? General Auditing Discussions 4
V Internal Auditor Competency KPI IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 14
J ISMS - Internal Audits Internal Auditing 3
M ISO 13485:2016 internal audit checklist Medical Device and FDA Regulations and Standards News 5
S ISO 9001:2015 Internal Auditing Internal Auditing 8
A Internal Audit Questions ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 11

Similar threads

Top Bottom