Alternative Internal Audit Methods - Seeking Enlightenment

M

M Greenaway

#11
Our friend Jim Wade had a lot of good ideas on this subject. He no longer frequents this forum however you can I am sure get in touch with him at www.bin.co.uk

Internal audit has got to be one of the most questionable quality tools in the book, particularly in regard to the ISO9001 concept of internal auditing, for so many reasons. I know a lot of hard working auditors will be choking on that comment, and a few years ago when I was primarily an 'auditor' I would also have argued the toss.
 
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Colin

Quite Involved in Discussions
#12
Some great posts here on what is an emotive subject. I agree entirely with not doing something just for the sake of it but imagine that ISO 9001 did not require internal audits to be done. Look at many of your internal audit findings and I suspect that they often turn up the fact that the current practice is no longer aligned with the procedure.

Now, we all know that we should not have to conduct an audit to find this out but how many managers 'self regulate' and put their hand up to say "my procedure is out of date, please help me change it?" - there are not many in my experience.

Like management review, internal audits are about what you get out of them, not what you put in. I see so many MR minutes which simply record what was discussed and not what they need to do about what was discussed. Audits should be used to improve processes, systems, procedures and practices but that requires 'buy in' by all concerned and cannot be forced in by over zealous auditors.
 
M

M Greenaway

#13
Colpart, your argument also appears to be based on the concept that conformance to a procedure is necessarily a useful tool also !
 
T

tarheels4 - 2007

#14
What we need is a system where the objective audit evidence comes out of the organization's normal operations, one where the findings and corrections actually help solve business problems.

Cliff Kachinske
If that is what you need, then that is what you should do. I am not sure what you are complaining about? I have seen good and bad audit programs just like every one else. The good ones are the ones in which someone decided to change things for the better.

And, if Andy wants to use a different curriculum for auditor training, then he should go right ahead and do it.
 

harry

Super Moderator
#15
Colpart, your argument also appears to be based on the concept that conformance to a procedure is necessarily a useful tool also !
If these procedures were built around good business practices necessary for the continued survival and prosperity of the business entity - why not?
 

Colin

Quite Involved in Discussions
#16
Colpart, your argument also appears to be based on the concept that conformance to a procedure is necessarily a useful tool also !
As Harry states, just a passing whim that they may have been intended to reflect what the business was planning to do to be successful :D
 
M

M Greenaway

#17
Well its a big IF, and the road to hell is paved with good intentions !

Seriously though, ISO9001 is not full of quality tools/techniques, its simply a management process standard, a couple of tools it does mention though are 'say what you do, do what you say' procedural control, and check that people are doing this, or audit control. In the grander scheme of things I would say that these tools have minimal real impact on quality improvement generally speaking that doesnt warrant their high profile within ISO9001.

For example SPC or control charts dont get specifically mentioned/mandated in ISO9001, we can pick and choose this control method based on what we see fit in our organisation. Why has this useful tool not been mandated, but an arguably lesser useful tool such as internal audit has been mandated ?

Also managers in most companies have 'quality' issues coming in daily from all directions that they have to react to, why do we think that our audit findings are more important than these issues ?
 

Colin

Quite Involved in Discussions
#18
I am not sure that we think audit findings are more important than other issues. However, a good internal audit might highlight areas for improvement which would prevent other 'quality issues' occurring in the first place.

As for SPC, ISO 9001 tries to be all things to all companies and control charts would not be overly relevant to a vast number of types of organisations that now use the standard. I do agree that many audit systems don't add value. That is not the fault of audit, more the fault of the methods of audit employed and the value attached to it by the people within.
 

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Staff member
Admin
#19
...a good internal audit might highlight areas for improvement which would prevent other 'quality issues' occurring in the first place.
Yes, I agree.

Internal auditing is still a compliance subject, based on the idea that the QMS should be managing goodness and hopefully promoting value in a self-supporting way. Internal auditing would verify that's happening, identify areas where interdendent activities could be more efficiently done, and show places where approaches can just be rethought from the beginning.

When auditing, a person can ask, "What should be the area of greatest focus? Arguably one might head for higher risk and opportunity to realize greatest value.

I've attached a short explanation of risk-based auditing approaches in this thread.

To better understand the processes, use tutle diagrams, make flow charts and process maps. This can be tough to do with virtual meetings. To help process owners understand the value of controlling their risk, use quality cost calculators in the Cove.

All of this moves away from compliance auditing, but it can bring real value because the auditor can maintain a high altitude perspective using operational details and a connect-the-dot mindset that managers may not be applying.
 
#20
I do agree that many audit systems don't add value. That is not the fault of audit, more the fault of the methods of audit employed and the value attached to it by the people within.
Colin:
You have hit at the heart of my passion for a major change in the business of training/qualifying/managing/performing internal audits. I find it amazing that the whole internal audit marketplace hasn't changed in any substantial way since I sat my Lead Auditor class in Swindon (U.K) in 1985! The basis of those training classes, and the work done by IRCA/RAB on auditor qualifications, hasn't changed since. Even the recent 'competency' requirements teach the same basic methods, just less by 'instruction'.

Since the whole system has been predicated on external audit behaviours, we get what you described. Lack of ownership, frustrated auditors etc. Sure some get benefits, but I'd like to be able to actually see some (tangible) improvements that management really like. My experience has been that these improvements are driven by 'relief' that issues were found internally. Culturally, everyone would rather call it 'an improvement', anyway.

Yes, the curriculum for internal audit must change. It has to de-emphasize external audit behaviours like 'opening' and 'closing' meetings (which use 15 point agendas and take 15 minutes), re-inforce the need for management input to planning, include 'audit management' as a qualification, instead of 'lead auditor' etc.

After twenty years it's time to carve a diifferent path for internal auditors so that organizations get some ($$) benefit and it's a recognized career enhancement to be one.
 
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