Alternative Internal Audit Methods - Seeking Enlightenment

M

M Greenaway

#21
I think we are all kinda agreeing, Colpart supports audits but does suggest a better way/approach, as does Andy in his comment regarding internal auditing mimicking external audits, and what little value that is - I agree with both sentiments entirely !

But maybe in order to get over the restrictions that the concept of internal auditing suggests to us we need to remove the title and concept from ISO9001, and do the things that auditing (traditionally) is trying to do some other way.
 
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Colin

Quite Involved in Discussions
#22
I don't know about the RAB criteria but the IRCA criteria for audit training insists on the use of ISO 19011 to structure audits. Whilst I support much of what is in 19011, I do not think much of it is applicable to most organisations when conducting their internal audits. It tends to suggest a very formal structure when often an informal one would work better.
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#23
Our friend Jim Wade had a lot of good ideas on this subject. He no longer frequents this forum however you can I am sure get in touch with him at www.bin.co.uk

Internal audit has got to be one of the most questionable quality tools in the book, particularly in regard to the ISO9001 concept of internal auditing, for so many reasons. I know a lot of hard working auditors will be choking on that comment, and a few years ago when I was primarily an 'auditor' I would also have argued the toss.
"Having been an auditor a few years ago", what do you suggest we should do with repect to ISO 9001:2000 internal audits? Can you give us a few specific suggestions?

Thank you very much.

Stijloor.
 
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Bev D

Heretical Statistician
Staff member
Super Moderator
#24
Jennifer had some nice ideas in her referenced post.
Adittionally, how about 'scheduling' audits for areas that generate 'too many' non conforming parts? or mistakes/errors that have serious consequences? teh idea here woudl be that the audit team would also be part of teh corrective action team and they would be looking likely causes of errors/mistakes or things that are contributing to the nonconformances....but the goal would be to contribute to the needed corrective action.

I also like to schedule 'verification' audits for areas that have implemented corrective actions to ensure that controls and solutions are being performed and are effective (not just forced on the operators)

use the concepts of Lean (5S, continuous improvement, visual workplace) as the basis for auditing to ensure that teh preventive/continuous improvement activities are effective...
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#25
I don't know about the RAB criteria but the IRCA criteria for audit training insists on the use of ISO 19011 to structure audits. Whilst I support much of what is in 19011, I do not think much of it is applicable to most organisations when conducting their internal audits. It tends to suggest a very formal structure when often an informal one would work better.
Hello Colpart,

The American version of ISO 19011 contains guidelines for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Party audits. I found this document useful.

Stijloor.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#26
....
Seriously though, ISO9001 is not full of quality tools/techniques, its simply a management process standard, a couple of tools it does mention though are 'say what you do, do what you say' procedural control, and check that people are doing this, or audit control. In the grander scheme of things I would say that these tools have minimal real impact on quality improvement generally speaking that doesnt warrant their high profile within ISO9001.

I sincerely hope your audits go much farther than just this? To me, this is just first base. The auditors should be looking for improvements on many different levels. Effectiveness in performance (based on data), Effectiveness in implementation. Lots of areas...
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#27
At my previous employer, I was Corporate Lead.....two of our facilities used an approach we termed "bite size" audits.....a specific process or part of a process, a specific procedure, or similar.....all scheduled, and start to finish the audit only required about 2 hours.....many more audits of course, but the appraoc worked well for them and they were able to keep the intrusion and disruption low, and find many improvements.

Hershal

Nice approach, Hershal. I like it.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#28
....performed the remote auditing, by using NetMeeting, and the ISO registrar did not have any problem with that
Are you saying the audits were remote, as in the auditor never even came onsite? I don't understand on what basis an auditor can accept a remote audit.

...company, was highly-tuned to quality, process improvement, and other quality - industry oriented models, and achieved great success.
That part is good.

It would be interesting to know why the registrar (DNV, other) did not accept that approach.... Perhaps that approach was too creative for the DNV auditor team. Currently, I am engaged as a lead auditor with a competitive ISO registrar and do not see any problem with this alternative. In fact, the NetMeeting approach and other creative approaches were brought up at a recent meeting with a director from ANAB, and he saw no problem with this approach as well.

It sounds interesting, but I have to really wonder just how likely it is that ANAB would not have a "problem" with remote audits?:confused:
 
J

JaneB

#29
It's expensive because it's totally outside the value stream. ...
I claim the return on investment is low because the scheduling and planning is arbitrary and because the audit findings seldom contribute to solving the company's real problems.
If it isn't contributing to solving real problems, then it both won't be useful and won't be perceived as such. Good audits can help find & resolve problems (walking the fine line, of course, of not telling other people how to do their jobs!)

Sounds like a good time for a review & overhaul to improve the audit system itself.

Far too often internal auditors model themselves on external ones (& not always great models at that). I agree with many of the fine suggestions, including getting input from the stakeholders incl. top management what *they* want to get out of it.

Perhaps take a bite-sized chunk? Tackle one area/problem & see how that goes?
 

Colin

Quite Involved in Discussions
#30
hjilling makes a great point when he mentions the word effectiveness. Clause 8.2.2 b) talks about auditing to ensure that the QMS is effectively implemented and maintained. In my experience, too many organisations major on the compliance element of 8.2.2 and forget the effectiveness aspect. This is a shame as it is where most improvements and preventive actions can be identified.

I guess it depends on the maturity of the system too. In the early days of auditing compliance is probably the main goal but as the QMS and the audit process matures, we should be looking more at effectiveness and improvements.

I have attached a simple graph that I show during my auditor training courses which tries to reflect this. Sorry the graph is a bit simplistic but I normally develop this on the flip chart.:)
 

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