AMS 2750 E or F Continuous Furnace TUS Data Collection

QAJA1717

Starting to get Involved
#1
Hello,

I'm seeking opinions on how much data to collect during a continuous furnace TUS.

AMS 2750 E somewhat details this out on section 3.5.14.4.3 - "Readings shall be recorded at least every 2 minutes with at least three sets of readings recorded per zone."

AMS 2750 F asks for more data points, but does not offer any more clarification to my question. Section 3.5.11.8.1 - "Temperature readings from all TUS sensors shall be recorded at least every 2 minutes with a minimum of ten sets of readings recorded for each qualified work zone."

These two sections define the frequency of data recording, however, they do not appear to define the amount of data points required within tolerance limits - or at least it's a bit subjective since the amount of data collected is influenced by recording intervals. Subjective in that I can set my recorder to record every 10-secs and stop the TUS after 30-secs set it to record in 1-min intervals and stop the TUS at 3-mins.

So my question is, how much temperature data is required to be collected while within uniformity tolerance limits?

This requirement is explained much better in the batch furnace section -

AMS 2750 E:
3.5.13.3.2 defines frequency of data collection - "Once data collection begins, temperature data shall be recorded from all TUS sensors at a frequency of at least one set of all readings every 2 minutes for the duration of the survey"

3.5.13.3.3 defines the amount of data required - "The furnace shall be held at the test temperature until all test sensors have stabilized. After stabilization, data collection shall continue for a minimum of 30 minutes." So 30-mins worth of data while stabilized at the setpoint.


Thanks in advance.
 
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#2
3.5.10.4 - Regardless of the frequency of temperature data collection of control, and recording sensors used during production the temperature data shall be documented in the normal format used during production throughout the TUS.

Use the same profile you are using for production requirements which are associated with the AMS2750F standard.
 

Randall Beck

Involved In Discussions
#3
Disclaimer: We have many batch furnaces and I am well versed in batch TUS's - not so much in continuous belt furnaces - But..

As you stated above those batch furnace requirements are very clear. In reviewing the continuous furnace TUS requirements however it seems as though the amount of data you will need must be calculated from your internal requirements. If your part requirements are to be at 500°F for 30 minutes you will need to have time and temperature data to prove this can be accomplished in your furnace. Based on your slowest and fastest furnace belt speeds recorded in production this may vary as far as the amount of data needed to show compliance. If you have a requirement for 500°F for 4 hours you would need to calculate a belt speed necessary to show that at this speed there are no overshoots during the longer soak times in each furnace zone if there are more than one. It appears as though the amount of data needed is based on belt speeds. SEE 3.5.11.10

Hopefully someone with more relevant experience can chime in and help us understand this a little more or at least let us know if I am on the right track. I am curious as well.
 

QAJA1717

Starting to get Involved
#4
3.5.10.4 - Regardless of the frequency of temperature data collection of control, and recording sensors used during production the temperature data shall be documented in the normal format used during production throughout the TUS.

Use the same profile you are using for production requirements which are associated with the AMS2750F standard.
Thanks. If I'm following correctly, you're stating the requirement is to gather the same amount of temperature data as one would in production. For other reader's reference, 3.5.10.4 falls under 3.5.10 TUS Data Collection.

(To alleviate confusion, note that all paragraphs referenced below are from Rev. F of the spec)

I somewhat agree however I believe that the paragraph is not so much defining the amount of temperature data required but only the format in which data is recorded. Furthermore, I believe this paragraph applies only to batch furnaces, salt baths, etc. (as described in 3.5.9). I'm open to discussing this more with others because I'm not entirely sure that the paragraph only applies to batch furnace, etc. myself but I say this due to the fact the continuous and semi-continuous furnaces have a dedicated section for TUS Data collection - 3.5.11.8.

As far as amount of temperature data collected which constitutes a successful TUS, I think this is described in 3.5.14 (TUS Pass/Fail Requirements). Specifically 3.5.14.1.3 and 3.5.14.1.4 -

3.5.14.1.3 - The time required to achieve TUS sensor temperature recovery, stabilization or a recurrent temperature pattern shall not have exceeded the time limit specified in the applicable material or process specification.

3.5.14.1.4 - The TUS soak period shall not have been less than the minimum required time.

- 3.5.14.1.3 defines an upper limit in overall temperature data collection and 3.5.14.1.4 defines a lower limit in temp data while in the "soak period". Soak is defined in 2.2.71 as basically having furnace and TUS temperature data within uniformity limits.

Similar to what Randall Beck is saying, this all comes down to production requirements defining the soak period minimum time.

Thank you for the input.
 

Randall Beck

Involved In Discussions
#5
For simplicity sakes - batch furnaces are required to have only 30 minutes of soak time recorded and sampled every 2 minutes max after stabilization.

Continuous and semi continuous furnaces will have variable TUS soak times proving they can meet the requirements for the minimum and maximum times required with no overshoots based on belt speeds throughout the entire work zone length.

If your slowest belt speed is X and you record data normally every 10 minutes on your production chart recorder then you would need at least 10 sets of readings for all thermocouples at speed X at a maximum sample rate of 5 minutes (per 3.5.11.8.1 of rev F) so your survey would have to be at least 50 minutes long at that belt speed I believe. This however may not cover the entire length of the work zone so you would have to extend the survey in order to qualify the entire work zone length and record more sets of data every 5 minutes. Annually the slowest and fastest speeds have to be verified as well I believe.

Hopefully someone can confirm this thinking though. I've never thought about continuous furnaces this much - Thank you.
 

thermal duc

Starting to get Involved
#6
Your question is answered in 3.5.11.8.1 of rev F but its really best explained with some hypotheticals.
3.5.11.8.1 gives a couple of requirements:

1)Temperature recordings [from TUS sensors] must be taken at least every 2 minutes
2)At least 10 readings must be taken in each zone
3)Multiple sets of readings can be taken from multiple passes if needed to establish a pattern
4)If temperature recording of [process] sensors is usually greater than 5 minutes during the TUS the recording interval must be at least once every 5 minutes.

So how many readings are needed? It really depends on your furnace, but always at least 10 sets from your TUS sensors.

lets say your work zone is 10 minutes long:

You need at least 10 readings so 10 readings at a reading rate of 1 reading a minute.

lets say your work zone is 30 minutes long:

You need at least 10 readings at a maximum of 2 minutes between readings. 10*2 is only 20 minutes, and you can not increase the 2 at all. 15*2 gets you to the full 30 minute length of the work zone. you need 15 readings at 2 minute intervals.

Essentially the formula for number of readings is is (soak time)/2 or 10 which ever is greater. And the formula for interval is interval is soak time/10 or 2 whichever is smaller. You can always have more data points and a shorter intervals but those formulas set your minimum and maximum values.

Our process recorders record at 15s intervals so we just set our DAQ to record at the same rate. data processing is automated so if I take 10 points of 10000 points the difference to me is about 200kb of storage space and 0.5 seconds of computer processing time.

It's always better and more accurate to take more points. Your TUS really should be giving you valuable information about your furnace. Use AMS2750 as a minimum guide, but don't do your TUS just to meet spec. Do it to make sure you know exactly what your furnace is doing. Better to have too much data than to not be able to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that your heat treat procedure was not responsible for an in flight failure.

Hope that helps.
 
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