An Engineer that does not understand gage R&R?

Q

qualitytrec

#1
:blowup:This is more of a vent than anything. Have any of you ever had an engineer that did not know why you need more than one part and one operator to perform a gage R & R. I explained that we needed to account for part variation, operator variation, and measurment variation. he still did not get it. He just walked out looking confused, shaking his head and asking why we got the machine (a laser micrometer of sorts) if it was going to be so much trouble.:frust::bonk::confused:
On top of that he told me a few days ago that he had learned about Design of Experiment in school but could never figure out how to use it for what he does. He was an injection plastic engineer now he does extrusion blow molding.
The boss said to me the other day when the engineer was caught doing something stupid that the company would always defer to the engineer's experience and expertise instead of the data I was presenting.
I give up. The data clearly showed lack of process control. The equipment manufacture and three separate consultants all said it should be able to perform better, but we will defer to the "expert".:mad:
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Staff member
Admin
#2
Re: An Engineer that does not understand gage R & R?

Sigh.

Here's the thing. He may have not had GR&R training in school, or slept through it, or whatever. And it's not reassuring that he doesn't understand DOE. It's not very exciting stuff, after all. :rolleyes:

Nonetheless, it's something we should go to the effort to.

If you can point to a standard, they will all require something to the effect of ensuring measurement equipment is performing accurately. Maybe you can point to a customer requirement. There are tools and slide shows on this forum that can help take the mystery out of it for him. No need to reinvent the wheel!

But this fellow should be put on a leash, and soon.
:2cents:
 

BradM

Staff member
Admin
#3
Re: An Engineer that does not understand gage R & R?

We do not espouse to the practices that we have because we are getting royalties, or because we all drink the same Kool Aide.:tg: The practices make sense, and provide value for the process. That holds true, no matter how much schoolin' you have/don't have.

It's fine if someone hasn't heard of something. But to not listen and be willing to learn, that's just stupidity.

Eventually, if this engineer stays in business very long, he/she will have no choice but to embrace system analysis to determine what the process is really capable of.

I've worked with my share of young engineers. The smart ones (my label) were not the ones with the 'best' education, but the ones willing to learn stuff from the old schoolers who were not as dumb as they would like them to be.:D
 
Q

qualitytrec

#4
Re: An Engineer that does not understand gage R & R?

Problem is, Brad, that this engineer has been at this a loooonnnngggg time. The owners of this company have placed too much confidence in his abilities to shoot from the hip and go with his gut. There have been no substantial improvements in his department that I can see in the 6yrs he has been with the company. All of the processes I have looked at are out of control. According to what I have observed both with my eyes and in the data the lack of control is twofold. Over-adjustment and no controlpoints are set. Each time they set up the machines it is like they want to re-invent the wheel.
One consultant stated it this way, "The definition of insanity has always been 'to do things the same way and expect different results.' I have come up with a new one since being here, 'to do things different everytime and expect the same results.'" He had this guy pegged.

Still fuming,
Mark
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#5
Re: An Engineer that does not understand gage R & R?

Problem is, Brad, that this engineer has been at this a loooonnnngggg time. The owners of this company have placed too much confidence in his abilities to shoot from the hip and go with his gut. There have been no substantial improvements in his department that I can see in the 6yrs he has been with the company. All of the processes I have looked at are out of control. According to what I have observed both with my eyes and in the data the lack of control is twofold. Over-adjustment and no controlpoints are set. Each time they set up the machines it is like they want to re-invent the wheel.
One consultant stated it this way, "The definition of insanity has always been 'to do things the same way and expect different results.' I have come up with a new one since being here, 'to do things different everytime and expect the same results.'" He had this guy pegged.

Still fuming,
Mark
The only chance you have is to quantify things (show money being lost) for the bosses. Even if you do that, sometimes bosses who have made an a priori commitment to faith in an individual's abilities will never admit that they were wrong about him, regardless of the evidence and wreckage.
 

Jerry Eldred

Forum Moderator
Super Moderator
#6
Re: An Engineer that does not understand gage R & R?

I don't have much to add, as this is not my area of expertise.

However, a brief story. A number of years ago, I was sent to school to be certified as MIL-STD-2000 Category C Instructor/Examiner for Soldering and ESD control at the small electronic manufacturing plant where I was then employed. They had basically no ESD controls in place.. I instituted the whole shooting match - dissipative flooring, static shielded bags, wrist straps/checker, operator logs, etc., etc., and so on...

Sometime in the middle of getting all this set up and working, I had an informal conversation with the head of engineering (this was electronic engineering, mind you - designing RF circuit assemblies, etc.). This person reported directly to the president of the company (a small, but recognized brand name in RF radio communications manufacturing). This head of engineering told me that he didn't believe in ESD, and that all the protection was nonsense to line someone's pockets.

Oh well. Seems there is always a fly in the ointment.

I would just say, fight the good fight of excellence. Patiently look for the opportunities to teach the right people the right things.

In my life's profession of Metrology, there have been along the way, many people who have thought calibration just messes up equipment, and is a sticker to keep auditors happy. I've been in this profession around 30 years now, and still deal with such mindsets. I constantly look for the opportunities to teach the right people the right things (maybe subconsciously why I enjoy being a part of this forum).
 
H

Hondo812

#7
Re: An Engineer that does not understand gage R & R?

Wow! That's shocking! An engineer (plastics/extrusion guy) that doesn't know what Quality does? Say it isn't so!

Sorry if that came off sounding bad but as an engineer I found it more than a little insulting. Personally I spent lots more time worrying about crazy stuff like heat transfer, thermodynamics, statics, etc. that what a gage R&R was. After entering the workforce I was too busy learning the details of my job to be concerned with what everyone else (500 someodd people) were supposed to be doing. What I did learn very quickly is what they could do for me.

Now I am by no means an expert at injection molding or extrusion though I have done a little of both. Extruding thin film is just as much art as it is science and to get similar results doesn't always translate into the same settings.

As for the laser mike...well the big reason we go to digital instruments is because everyone reads the number 5 the same way.i.e. no interpretation. It could be that he has a point. If it has been calibrated through its range then a gage R&R may be uneccessary. There may be some training needs to be addressed however. Just remember the story of the monkey and the bananas...
 

Miner

Forum Moderator
Staff member
Admin
#8
Re: An Engineer that does not understand gage R & R?

If it has been calibrated through its range then a gage R&R may be uneccessary.
Not true! Calibration properly done through the range will address linearity, but is totally unrelated to R&R. Repeatability and Reproducibility is more than reading a digital number the same. It is also in how the part is presented to the gage, etc.
 

howste

Thaumaturge
Super Moderator
#9
Re: An Engineer that does not understand gage R & R?

This head of engineering told me that he didn't believe in ESD, and that all the protection was nonsense to line someone's pockets.
Maybe he thought you said ESP? :bonk:


Wow! That's shocking! An engineer (plastics/extrusion guy) that doesn't know what Quality does? Say it isn't so!

Sorry if that came off sounding bad but as an engineer I found it more than a little insulting. Personally I spent lots more time worrying about crazy stuff like heat transfer, thermodynamics, statics, etc. that what a gage R&R was. After entering the workforce I was too busy learning the details of my job to be concerned with what everyone else (500 someodd people) were supposed to be doing. What I did learn very quickly is what they could do for me.
Why would you be insulted by what he said about another engineer? I think the point is, the engineer was disregarding the knowledge and expertise of others. I have an engineering degree too, and I wasn't insulted at all. We should all try to effectively use what we know. Sometimes more importantly, we need to recognize what we don't know. Then we can work with other experts to more effectively control the process.

Now I am by no means an expert at injection molding or extrusion though I have done a little of both. Extruding thin film is just as much art as it is science and to get similar results doesn't always translate into the same settings.
At the risk of offence (not my intent), I'd have to say that just about everything is "as much art as it is science" until it's more fully understood. If the engineer ignores the data, then how can he hope to understand how to bring the process into control?

As for the laser mike...well the big reason we go to digital instruments is because everyone reads the number 5 the same way.i.e. no interpretation. It could be that he has a point. If it has been calibrated through its range then a gage R&R may be uneccessary. There may be some training needs to be addressed however. Just remember the story of the monkey and the bananas...
Just because something is digital doesn't meant there is less variation. A laser mic is susceptible to huge amounts of error if the part being measured isn't placed properly. If the operator-to-operator error in this case happens to be negligible the R&R will show it - then we won't have to worry about it.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#10
Re: An Engineer that does not understand gage R & R?

Wow! That's shocking! An engineer (plastics/extrusion guy) that doesn't know what Quality does? Say it isn't so!

Sorry if that came off sounding bad but as an engineer I found it more than a little insulting. Personally I spent lots more time worrying about crazy stuff like heat transfer, thermodynamics, statics, etc. that what a gage R&R was. After entering the workforce I was too busy learning the details of my job to be concerned with what everyone else (500 someodd people) were supposed to be doing. What I did learn very quickly is what they could do for me.
People in quality often have to know/learn and at least be conversant with what engineers, manufacturing managers, production planners, accountants, and god-knows-who-else does for a living, or we wouldn't be able to do our jobs half of the time. Expecting an engineer with a grasp on applied physics sufficient to do productive work in heat transfer and thermodynamics to understand basic statistical tools and concepts isn't too much too ask, is it?
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
M What is a Quality Engineer? What does a Quality Engineer do? Career and Occupation Discussions 7
was named killer Job Opportunity-Quality Engineer-Tampa Florida Job Openings, Consulting and Employment Opportunities 0
K Looking for a job as Quality Engineer Career and Occupation Discussions 2
B What is the role of Quality Engineer in APQP and PPAP APQP and PPAP 3
Jen Kirley Moving on - I accepted an offer to be a Supplier Quality Engineer at GE Healthcare Coffee Break and Water Cooler Discussions 42
A Resident Engineer duties Supplier Quality Assurance and other Supplier Issues 1
B Interview Presentation for Quality Engineer Role Next Week! Career and Occupation Discussions 21
A Career Path Options for Quality Assurance Engineer in Roads & Infrastructure Field Career and Occupation Discussions 2
D Definition Engineer's Main File Definition - What is an "Engineer's Main File"? Definitions, Acronyms, Abbreviations and Interpretations Listed Alphabetically 7
S Calibration Engineer and Calibration Technician Job Interview Questions General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 2
A Auditor's certificate for newly employed graduate? (Mechanical Engineer) Professional Certifications and Degrees 1
D Just starting out looking to get into a quality engineer position Career and Occupation Discussions 2
M Advice for a Civil Engineer turned Quality Engineer Career and Occupation Discussions 2
Ajit Basrur Amar G. Bose, Acoustic Engineer and Inventor, Dies at 83 Coffee Break and Water Cooler Discussions 8
M How to be a good Quality Assurance Engineer Career and Occupation Discussions 6
B Interview questions for a Validation Engineer Reliability Analysis - Predictions, Testing and Standards 3
D What's the future of supplier quality engineer for your worklife? Supplier Quality Assurance and other Supplier Issues 3
E Who approves work by the quality engineer? ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 7
N Need Help Preparing for Medical Device Quality Engineer Interview Career and Occupation Discussions 2
F Supplier Quality Engineer Beginner - Potential Interview Questions Supplier Quality Assurance and other Supplier Issues 3
C CRE (Certified Reliability Engineer) Exam 03/02/2013 Professional Certifications and Degrees 11
M Capability Studies in Engineer to Order Small Batches Capability, Accuracy and Stability - Processes, Machines, etc. 5
F ISO 9001 QMS Implementation in an Engineer To Order business ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 1
T Senior SQE (Supplier Quality Engineer) Specific Roles and Responsibilities Career and Occupation Discussions 5
S SQE (Supplier Quality Engineer) Job Interview Questions Benchmarking 4
P Quality Engineer Job Specifics, Experience and Requirements Career and Occupation Discussions 13
M Design & Development - Only 1 Engineer - Who is responsible for Approval? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 4
John Broomfield Rocket Engineer who foretold the Challenger disaster is dead Coffee Break and Water Cooler Discussions 8
B Justifying the Value of a Quality Engineer Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 14
M Combining EcoDesign with Compliance (Product Safety/EMC) Engineer Career and Occupation Discussions 2
2 Trying to Implement a Manufacturing Engineer Concept to my Company Manufacturing and Related Processes 5
A SQE's (Supplier Quality Engineer) Responsibility in New Project Supplier Quality Assurance and other Supplier Issues 4
P Quality Engineer's Role in Tracking MRT Metrics & PDT Metrics Customer Complaints 2
P Quality Engineer's Role in Cost Management (including UMC) Misc. Quality Assurance and Business Systems Related Topics 3
Q Career Change from Industrial Engineer to Quality Engineer Career and Occupation Discussions 30
D Job Description and Responsibilities for a New Quality Engineer Career and Occupation Discussions 8
D Can I do it? If I want to be free engineer? Supplier Quality Assurance and other Supplier Issues 3
1 Training Matrix for Quality Engineer and Quality Liaison personnel Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 2
P Entry Level Quality Engineer Interview Preparation/Advice? Career and Occupation Discussions 23
K Benefits of being an ASQ CQE (Certified Quality Engineer) Professional Certifications and Degrees 3
H Second Quality Engineer Position Interview - What should I brush up on? Career and Occupation Discussions 6
M Changing Job Profile - Logistics Engineer to Buyer Career and Occupation Discussions 3
B Parts per Million Goal in an Engineer to Order Company Manufacturing and Related Processes 9
D What is the value of a Supplier Quality Engineer? Supplier Quality Assurance and other Supplier Issues 3
Manix The Toughest Decision I have ever had to make! Director or Quality Engineer Career and Occupation Discussions 16
A Interviewing Tests for a Regulatory Engineer Other Medical Device and Orthopedic Related Topics 4
S Licensed Quality Engineer - Which states actually license "Quality Engineers"? Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 22
A Role of QA Engineer in Medical Device Companies Career and Occupation Discussions 13
Q New Job!!!-You are looking at the new Sr. Process Engineer for Overstock Covegratulations 11
T Opportunity to become senior 'Subcontractor Quality Management' Engineer Career and Occupation Discussions 13

Similar threads

Top Bottom