An Etiquette Question

C

Charmed

Dear Covers:

If you are a golf fan, you probably know that Vijay Singh recently captured the No. 1 spot in the World Golf Ranking. This is a major golf "event". Tiger Woods held the top spot for a record 226 weeks. Vijay is the first player to dethrone Tiger from the top spot. A complex formula is used to determine the ranks. Vijay has now retained the top spot for two weeks in a row.

Last week, Vijay won the Canadian Open under some really strange circumstances. Canadian born Mike Weir (who lives in the US, by the way, as does Vijay), had been a favorite and was leading the tournament. The last Canadian to win the title was Pat Fletcher, exactly 50 years ago. It was also the 100th Canadian Open event. So, all of Canada was rooting for a Canadian to win. But, Weir stumbled on the very last day. And both Vijay and Mike pulled even on the very last hole - the 72nd hole played!

Vijay won the play-off after Mike got his ball into the water!

Anyway, the question I have is one that deals with etiquette. Please take a look at this attached photograph? What do you see? Does this offend you?

(broken link removed)

Let me explain. You see Mike extending his hand to Vijay to congratulate him. Mike has his hat in his hand. Vijay's hat is still on.

Last week, a similar photograph appeared when Tiger Woods and Vijay Singh were playing head-on and Vijay won, to dethrone Tiger from the top spot. Again, the photograph is very similar, with Tiger extending his hand to Vijay to congratulate him, with his hat in the other hand. Again, Vijay shook hands with Tiger with his own hat on.

There are many golf fans who don't like Vijay. One of the golfers made a nasty remark about Vijay lacking class - and being disrespectful - shaking hands with your opponent with your hat on! Phil Mickelson would never do that, this golfer said.

What do you think, even if you are not a golfer? Is this a big deal?

I think, it may be just a cultural thing. May be Vijay does not know this at all and has not given it much thought. Vijay is a Fijian, of Indian origin. But, he has also been on the world stage long enough to know these niceties. With his recent win in the Canadian Open, Vijay has expanded his lead and will retain the top spot at least through the end of 2004. May be we can send the results of the vote here to Vijay. He will be playing in Michigan later this week - in a golf club not far from where I live!


********************

P. S. A couple years ago, I started seeing the connection between sports and "quality", especially after Annika Sorenstam, the world's champion woman golfer was invited to play in a men's event. Then, I asked myself the question: why should it matter that Annika is surrounded by men, instead of women, when she is playing golf? She has to do her own thing and the men do their own thing. Is there any real difference in performance - other than a psychological factor?

Consistent performance in sports, such as hitting 40 home runs each season, or scoring birdies in golf, is just like delivering a high quality product - with zero defects. So, I got interested in analyzing golf scores and baseball scores for the last couple of years.

By the way, next year, Vijay's lead over Tiger might actually widen, since Tiger will lose more points (the point system accounts for wins over last two years and Tiger will lose some of the lead built over the years). The world golf rank is also a ratio, y/x. The numerator is the total points. The denominator is a number called "events". So, the ranking is based, loosely speaking, on points per event.
 
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D

D.Scott

Just a comment on the photo here. You will notice Vijay has his putter in his left hand which indicates he just finished sinking the final putt. If Mike had come over immediately to congratulate him, which is Mike's style, Vijay has the choice of shaking his hand or removing his hat. He can't do both at the same time because he is still holding the putter. I have seen Vijay on other occasions both in winning and losing positions. I can say I have never seen him being disrespectful to any opponent. I don't think the photo shows any disrespect. Another thing, if I won the Canadian Open, my first thought sure wouldn't be, "don't forget to take your hat off". Just my opinion.

Dave
 
S

SteelWoman

As for the "cultural" possibility, I live in the south and hats are EVERYWHERE - it's very common to see even women sitting in restaurants with a baseball cap on, especially on weekends. In the old south (think "To Kill a Mockingbird" era) it would have been unthinkable for a man to not remove a hat when shaking hands, but now hats have crossed gender barriers and other cultural barriers (like restaurants). It's extremely rare down this way in ANY setting for someone to remove a hat to shake a hand - I've lived here all my life and the last time I saw someone do that was at a funeral. At sporting events the only time I've seen someone remove a hat is to use it as a tool for waving at someone, certainly not to shake someone's hand.

Sorry, but at least from the Southern perspective I don't see what the big deal is with Vijay keeping his hat on. "Course, Vijay's home is in Florida, so seems to me he's just acting like the rest of us down this a'way. :D
 
D

Dean P.

I tend to agree with Dave on this situation. I have heard Vijay speak, particularly after Sunday's round, and he is a courteous person. He even said that there was only one person he didn't want to beat this week, and that was Weir. That being said, I do notice quite often which players do and don't take their hat off to shake an opponents hand (I think my Mom did a good job with my manners!!!).

Going off an a slight tangent....overall though, it is a different world now, as Steel mentioned. Every now and then I get to interview potential new employees. Even though it's for a manufacturing postion (i.e. a 'line worker'), I have had several guys come in and sit down with shorts and a tee-shirt, and a baseball hat. I don't care if it is a factory job, show some respect to your potential new employer. My sister (who is a few years younger) thinks that I should 'see through their appearance for the person that they are'. Possibly, but the way they present themselves also gives me an indication of the person that they are, and the effort they will put into their new job.

My two cents.

Dean
 

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Leader
Admin
Dean P. said:
My sister (who is a few years younger) thinks that I should 'see through their appearance for the person that they are'. Possibly, but the way they present themselves also gives me an indication of the person that they are, and the effort they will put into their new job.

My two cents.

Dean

Grr...I have seen this, people coming to ask for applications while looking like they just mowed their lawns. No, no, no. Your sister is not correct on this one, IMO.

I'm not a psychic, I can't see peoples' personalities in spite of their apparel. Rather, the apparel largely expresses their personalities.
 
R

Rachel

Dean P. said:
Going off an a slight tangent...Every now and then I get to interview potential new employees. Even though it's for a manufacturing postion (i.e. a 'line worker'), I have had several guys come in and sit down with shorts and a tee-shirt, and a baseball hat. I don't care if it is a factory job, show some respect to your potential new employer. My sister (who is a few years younger) thinks that I should 'see through their appearance for the person that they are'. Possibly, but the way they present themselves also gives me an indication of the person that they are, and the effort they will put into their new job.Dean


Dean,

For what it's worth, I'm a "few years younger" as well, and I wholeheartedly agree. Like it or not, your appearance plays an important role in how you are perceived (in person) by a potential employer - or by anyone, for that matter. The same thing happens at our facility all the time - and I look at these people and think "what the h*** are you thinking?!?!?!".

You don't have to spend a fortune to look respectable - and you can still look grubby and disrespectful in a shirt and tie, if it's poorly worn. I just don't get why someone would take the chance of losing out on a job because he/she didn't dress the part.

Also for what it's worth - and even more off-topic - the same thing applies on paper. Grammar and spelling are so very important - and a lack of these skills can kill credibility, in my opinion. All the intelligence in the world isn't going to save you if you can't properly express yourself. Call me a snob if you want, but JMHO.

Cheers,
-R.
 
B

Bill Pflanz

Maybe I am old fashioned but I was taught that men do not wear hats inside the home, in a church or in a restaurant. Although I don't see it in church very often, it is non unusual to see hats worn in restaurants.

My son and I have disagreed over this issue also. Except for the reason that it was the way I was taught, I did not have an answer to his question about why it should not be done. Since a dad gets more votes on issues like this one, my son did not get to wear the hat. The custom probably began as a sign of respect but I have no idea where it started.

Golf is very much a game of etiquette and honoring the rules even when no one is watching. There are a lot of peculiar customs and rules but I don't remember removing a hat as one of them. From a quality perspective, some of the rules of business etiquette have also deteriorated over time also.

Bill Pflanz
 
E

engjane

On my soapbox

:nopity: :nopity: I think there is a happy medium and its somewhere we all struggle to reach. In the UK, my attire was considered too informal (shirt untucked (square edged) and casual trousers). Here in Canada, it is considered more formal than most wear.

Being late in the UK was considered bad. Here it is not considered.

Introducing yourself with just your forename is not de rigeur in the UK. Again, in Canada, I get funny looks when I use Miss Lack.

Re-introducing lessons in school in the basics of etiquette should be a consideration. It doesnt hurt to know when and how to behave, regardless of what country you are in…teach us all the cultural differences, after all every nation is becoming multi cultural. It’s a life lesson like learning to use a knife and fork properly (small dig at North America..apologies)

As for golf – Im sorry but I hate the game and think the old fashioned rules are ridiculous, especially in a country that thinks I am overdressed for work in a shirt and trousers.

I think we need to get our priorities right. Lets stop pointing guns at one another and then we can have a flap about what happens on the golf course.

:2cents:
 

Cari Spears

Super Moderator
Leader
Super Moderator
engjane said:
Re-introducing lessons in school in the basics of etiquette should be a consideration.

No kiddin'! I am THE MOM every one of my daughter's friends has come to expect (dread?) etiquette lessons from. From correcting their grammar, to expecting them to properly introduce themselves on the phone before they ask if she is home. I know they all roll their eyes - but they are learning something whether they want to or not. Plus I'm never mean about it - she tells me her friends think I'm cool - high praise from pre-teens!!
 

Wes Bucey

Prophet of Profit
As do many of you, I live in a "culturally diverse" area. Sikhs wear turbans and carry knives on their belts. Orthodox Jews and Muslims wear headgear. Folks undergoing chemo or radiation therapy wear headgear to cover hair loss. It's sometimes best to ignore minor aspects and look to the entire transaction to determine whether or not someone intends to insult another. What does one do if one encounters a "germ phobe" who can't bear to shake hands at all?

The time has long passed where one culture can hope to impose its mores and ethics on another. Some use deceptive and dissembling language by claiming "security" or "hygiene" - but the intent is the same: "Conform to MY way!"
 
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