An Etiquette Question

Wes Bucey

Prophet of Profit
Craig H. said:
Wingtips are out of the question.
Good golly, Miss Molly! I still have 4 or 5 pairs of perfectly good wing tips. I also have several 3 piece suits (jacket, vest, trousers), racks and racks of ties, and some hats.

I just took a look at hats in my closets:
  • no bowlers
  • 1 homburg
  • 1 silk top hat (from when I was Master of my Masonic Lodge)
  • 1 Stetson (felt) cowboy hat
  • 3 "casual" straw hats (no boaters)
  • 20 or 30 golf hats (baseball? - not much difference) about 2/3 are logoed from various golf tournaments, 1/3 plain
  • 3 hard hats (2 with bills and one with full 360 degree rim)
  • 5 or 6 knit stocking caps
  • 2 knit combination ski mask/hats
  • 1 tweed Irish walking hat
  • Added in edit: 5 Shrine fezzes - they are in different place than closet
I think men in America stopped wearing dressy hats during JFK's presidency (1961-63), even though he wore a silk top hat to his inauguration, because he rarely wore a hat in public. His successor, LBJ, wore a Stetson cowboy hat.

I remember going to baseball games in the 50's when many (not all) adult men wore suits and ties to Sox and Cubs games, plus lots of fedoras and white and beige straw hats. One local columnist used to signal the end of summer by a ceremonial throwing of his straw boater into the Chicago River from the Michigan Avenue bridge on Labor Day.
 
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C

Charmed

Dear Covers:

It looks like we do not have too many golfers / golf fans here, but that's OK. We can continue the etiquette discussion now with what happened at the Ryder's Cup tournament what Dave Scott chided (kidded) me about (see Quality, Excellence, and Golf Scores in Philosophy etc. Forum)

The Ryder Cup is a biennial event where the best of US and the best of Europe play as a team against each other. The US team suffered the biggest opening day route in the history of this tournament. Players are paired in this tournament and play as a team. The US captain made a strategic blunder - it now looks like - by pairing his two best players, Tiger Woods and Phil Mickelson, the highest ranked golfers in the world (No. 2 and No. 4).

This duo lost to two Europeans who have no great standing in golf, after being 3 UP. Each team gets 1 point for each hole played. The point is awarded to the team that takes the few strokes. The US team, with the two best players was UP 3 points, yet they lost.

Golf fans think it was a strategic - or what might be called a QUALITY issue . Just look at the photograph of Tiger standing here with an arms folded.

https://sports.espn.go.com/golf/index

https://sports.espn.go.com/golf/rydercup04/news/story?id=1883809

They say that Tiger and Phil don't get along. I can't understand why. I don't know why they did not even try. When the tournament began we see their two European opponents Colin Montgomerie and Padraig Harrington smiling and behaving like good friends. But, no love lost between the two top ranked US players! You do see Phil trying to pat Tiger's shoulder in the other photograph.

It is not the loss - it is the lack of comradrie that makes me even more sad today. If I am off topic, sorry.

By the way, as far as hats go, I noticed that both Tiger and Phil removed their hats before they shook hands with their two British opponents at the end of the match. Of course, like Carl said, Colin Montgomerie, they call him Monty, just had no hat to remove, and neither did Padraig Harrington. That solves the etiquette problem from the British side. They were smiling all the way, from the first shot of the day - with no hat on!
 
C

Charmed

Hats Off, Hats On

Dear Covers:

If you watched the 35th Ryder Cup, it tells us everything we need to know about hats (or what is really caps) and etiquette in golf.

I saw members of both the US and the European teams take their caps off to shake hands at the end of the match.

And, I also saw Jim Furyk shaking hands with his opponent, cap on, while his opponent had his cap off after he had played the last hole to win the match.

What this tells me, is that you don't consciously say now I have to take my cap off to show respect to my opponent when I shake hands. It all happens instinctively. It is part of what you were taught growing up and what you choose to make it a part of your upbringing. And, sometimes, on the spur of the moment, you might not remember to take your cap (or hat) off.

As long as no real disrespect or slight is intended, it's OK. The important thing is to learn to be comfortable with yourself.

It was wonderful to see Phil Mickelson, who was grounded on Saturday morning by the US captain (for poor performance on Friday) go out there and cheer his teammates. He was on the team again in the afternoon and won his match. Tiger was smiling more than he did and seemed to enjoy playing with his partner in the morning. Tiger and his partner lost their match in the afternoon, though.

The more I think about this, the more I feel we could adopt the golf model to understand many quality problems. Here's my view of it.

Think about something that you are dealing with where:

1. There are clearly Defined objectives.
2. Everyone is provided with the tools needed to achieve the objectives.
3. Everyone is clear about how to Measure the objectives.
4. Teamwork is required to meet the objectives.
5. Management/those in leadership can Analyze progress to meet the objectives.
6. Leadership is not afraid to take action to achieve Improvement in the team's performance, to ensure that objectives are met in a timely fashion.

If this sounds familiar - that's what is going on at the Ryder Cup this weekend, being played just 11.8 miles from my home. I had a front row seat!
 

Wesley Richardson

Wes R
Trusted Information Resource
Charmed said:
Dear Covers:

If you are a golf fan, you probably know that Vijay Singh recently captured the No. 1 spot in the World Golf Ranking. This is a major golf "event". Tiger Woods held the top spot for a record 226 weeks. Vijay is the first player to dethrone Tiger from the top spot. A complex formula is used to determine the ranks. Vijay has now retained the top spot for two weeks in a row.

Last week, Vijay won the Canadian Open under some really strange circumstances. Canadian born Mike Weir (who lives in the US, by the way, as does Vijay), had been a favorite and was leading the tournament. The last Canadian to win the title was Pat Fletcher, exactly 50 years ago. It was also the 100th Canadian Open event. So, all of Canada was rooting for a Canadian to win. But, Weir stumbled on the very last day. And both Vijay and Mike pulled even on the very last hole - the 72nd hole played!

Vijay won the play-off after Mike got his ball into the water!

Anyway, the question I have is one that deals with etiquette. Please take a look at this attached photograph? What do you see? Does this offend you?

(broken link removed)

Let me explain. You see Mike extending his hand to Vijay to congratulate him. Mike has his hat in his hand. Vijay's hat is still on.

Last week, a similar photograph appeared when Tiger Woods and Vijay Singh were playing head-on and Vijay won, to dethrone Tiger from the top spot. Again, the photograph is very similar, with Tiger extending his hand to Vijay to congratulate him, with his hat in the other hand. Again, Vijay shook hands with Tiger with his own hat on.

There are many golf fans who don't like Vijay. One of the golfers made a nasty remark about Vijay lacking class - and being disrespectful - shaking hands with your opponent with your hat on! Phil Mickelson would never do that, this golfer said.

What do you think, even if you are not a golfer? Is this a big deal?

I think, it may be just a cultural thing. May be Vijay does not know this at all and has not given it much thought. Vijay is a Fijian, of Indian origin. But, he has also been on the world stage long enough to know these niceties. With his recent win in the Canadian Open, Vijay has expanded his lead and will retain the top spot at least through the end of 2004. May be we can send the results of the vote here to Vijay. He will be playing in Michigan later this week - in a golf club not far from where I live!


********************

P. S. A couple years ago, I started seeing the connection between sports and "quality", especially after Annika Sorenstam, the world's champion woman golfer was invited to play in a men's event. Then, I asked myself the question: why should it matter that Annika is surrounded by men, instead of women, when she is playing golf? She has to do her own thing and the men do their own thing. Is there any real difference in performance - other than a psychological factor?

Consistent performance in sports, such as hitting 40 home runs each season, or scoring birdies in golf, is just like delivering a high quality product - with zero defects. So, I got interested in analyzing golf scores and baseball scores for the last couple of years.

By the way, next year, Vijay's lead over Tiger might actually widen, since Tiger will lose more points (the point system accounts for wins over last two years and Tiger will lose some of the lead built over the years). The world golf rank is also a ratio, y/x. The numerator is the total points. The denominator is a number called "events". So, the ranking is based, loosely speaking, on points per event.

On the PGA web site at https://www.pga.com/play/golf-etiquette.cfm you will find the Golf Etiquette as defined by the PGA.

On the USGA web site at (broken link removed), click on Rules of Golf...
Then click on the upper left "Etiquette"

Neither the PGA nor the USGA have a reference to removal of a cap when shaking hands.

As far as a gentleman removing his hat when meeting another person, it seems that the web sites I found described various conditions between a man and a woman, but not two men.

Do you have a reference for the etiquette for removing a hat when a man shakes hands with another man?

Wes R.
 
C

Charmed

Wesley Richardson said:
On the PGA web site at https://www.pga.com/play/golf-etiquette.cfm you will find the Golf Etiquette as defined by the PGA.

As far as a gentleman removing his hat when meeting another person, it seems that the web sites I found described various conditions between a man and a woman, but not two men.

Do you have a reference for the etiquette for removing a hat when a man shakes hands with another man?

Wes R.

Dear Wes R:

Glad to see you have checked the PGA golf-etiquette rules. I had been wondering about that.

As far as the rule of gentlemen removing their hats before shaking hands - I know of none except that I have heard complaints from those who did not like what Vijay Singh was seen doing after he dethroned Tiger Woods from the top spot. Tiger went to shake Vijay's hand with his cap in one hand. I saw the same repeated at the Candian Open and I have since been watching what other players have been doing at the Ryder Cup. (May be the guys who complained about Vijay Singh didn't like him, period. And, may be Vijay just did not have time to react to the situation.)

However, in most cases, with a few very rare exceptions, I found the world's top US and European players, now assembled in Michigan, were removing their hats (or caps) before shaking hands, at the end of a match. There will be 12 more matches to witness today and that means 12 opportunities for watching this hat/cap removal etiquette being practiced by these top players.
 
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Wesley Richardson

Wes R
Trusted Information Resource
I believe removing a hat or tipping a hat by using a hand to slightly raise the brim is an indication of respect to the person that is it given to. This is then similar to bowing or kneeling in other settings.

In any sport or competitive activity, the person with "class" does not think of it as being beaten by their opponent, but rather that both were striving for excellence. Golf is a very challenging and complex game. The competition then becomes which person, at that point in time, produced the best results using a combination of skill and luck under those conditions. Note that no one ever beats a golf course, but rather sometimes you do better and sometimes not as well.

If you listen to the top people in any activity they will say it is not so much the physical aspects, but rather the mental process. Great golfers have the ability that when they hit into the woods, or to a difficult position, they are able to recover and often save par. When I am a difficult golf location, it usually costs me 3 or more strokes to recover. The pros then have a very effective corrective corrective action system.

I do not believe Vijay had any disrespect, but will we ever know all of the thoughts and emotions that were going on in his head at that moment of time. It is much easier to look at an event and say I would have done something different if I were there, than it is to be the person making moment to moment decisions about what to do. I know on more than one occassion I have been on the telephone having a discussion, and then shortly after hanging up, thought to myself, I should have said something different, or in a different way.

This has been a very interesting topic. It also reflects, as some of the earlier comments indicate, there has been an evolution in what is considered proper etiquette. It was not so many years ago, 25 or perhaps 30 years, that in a business setting, everyone that you met, you addressed by their last name, Mr. Singh, Mr. Woods, Mrs. King. This was a sign of respect, and acknowledgement of the relationship. Today, most people in a business setting immediately start using first names, even though you don't know them that well. The use of last name is reserved for people for whom you have great respect, e.g. Dr. Juran, or the CEO of the company.

How would each of us perform if we met the President of the U.S. in a grocery store, or met Tiger Woods unexpectedly? Many years ago I met Paul Newman in the paddock area of a race track. He was not there as an actor, but as a participant. It was quite a chance, my friend and I were walking between race cars, where only one person could pass at a time. Paul Newman had entered the gap going the opposite direction about the same time. In hindsight, I would have let him pass first. As it turns out he said "hello boys" and stepped back to let us pass. I know I said something, but to this day, cannot remember exactly what it was. I definitely know it was not clever or witty.

Perhaps Vijay will tip his hat or remove it to congratulate another golfer that wins, and then we will know more about him.

Wes R.
 
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C

Charmed

Meeting the President

Wesley Richardson said:
I believe removing a hat or tipping a hat by using a hand to slightly raise the brim is an indication of respect to the person that is it given to.

Golf is a very challenging and complex game. The competition then become which person, at that point in time, produced the best results using a combination of skill and luck under those conditions.

If you listen to the top people in any activity they will say it is not so much the physical aspects, but rather the mental process. Great golfers have the ability that when they hit into the woods, or to a difficult position, they are able to recover and often save par. When I am a difficult golf location, it usually costs me 3 or more strokes to recover. The pros then have a very effective corrective corrective action system.

I do not believe Vijay had any disrespect...., I know on more than one occassion I have been on the telephone having a discussion, and then shortly after hanging up, thought to myself, I should have said something different, or in a different way.....

This has been a very interesting topic. ...

How would each of us perform if we met the President of the U.S. in a grocery store,

Perhaps Vijay will tip his hat or remove it to congratulate another golfer that wins, and then we will know more about him.

Wes R.


Dear Wes R:

Perhaps, we will soon find out what Vijay does when he has to congratulate someone who has won a match.

But, talking about meeting the President of the United States, I saw that happen just a week or so ago, when George Bush was visiting Florida after the hurricanes. .. A group of people wwere standing around and all of a sudden Bush was out there shaking hands with the people in the crowd. It appeared like a parking lot or something. One young couple was standing against a car or a truck. Bush was shaking hands and chatting with a woman next this guy. What would you do when the President I standing almost next to you, and you can literally touch him?

I was curious to see what this guy does. He was so totally disinterested. In fact he turned away and did not even bother to look at Bush. Instead, you see him trying to hug his girl friend, or wife. Then, a few moments later, Bush turns to him and extends his hand. The guy shakes his hand, but it appears like he was staring at the blue skies...

Since you mentioned meeting the President, I brought this up... sometimes i feel we have lost our sense of respect... everyone deserves to be treated with respect...that is really what this was all about ....

I am going to watch the conclusion of the Ryder Cup carefully today. How many of the 24 caps/hats are held in the hand when the players shake each others hands at the end of their matches?
 
C

Charmed

Perfect Picture of Mutual Respect

Dear Covers:

Here's the perfect picture from the Ryder Cup of two gentlemen shaking hands with their hats/caps off at the end of their match. You see the same in slide number 20.

(broken link removed)

Of 23 hats/caps, I saw 21 coming off when the players shook hands to congratulate each other. Sometimes it was winner who finished his shot second and extended his hand, after removing his hat/cap. The other was standing, with his hat in his hand. Sometimes, it was the other way around. I say 23 out of possible 24, since Colin Montgomerie never wore a hat/cap during the matches. Anyway, he is the senior and elder golfer and we should all be removing our hats for him. Fittingly, he led the European victory on Friday and it was his putt that also made victory official on Sunday.

There were only two examples (both winners) who did not remove their hats when they shook hands with their opponents. I don't think they thought much of it. Thanks a lot for participating.

It was a really BOISTEROUS European celebration after their victory with chants of "Ole, Ole". The next time it should be even more boisterous - Ireland will be the host for the 2006 Ryder Cup event. Hats off to all of you! Have a nice Sunday evening.

Charmed
 
D

D.Scott

"since Colin Montgomerie never wore a hat/cap during the matches. Anyway, he is the senior and elder golfer and we should all be removing our hats for him."

Oops !!!! Colin wasn't the "old man" of the day. He is only 41 years old. Jay Hass of the American side was the only true "senior". At age 50 he was eligible to play on the senior circuit but played with the regular tour to gain points to play in the Ryder. Fred Funk, also on the American side is 48. Colin must have felt like a kid playing with these guys.

Dave
 
C

Charmed

Truly senior

Dear Dave:

You are right. I forgot Jay Haas for sure - the really senior one in the group.
 
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