An Internal Audit Challenge - Audit of the Quality System Effectiveness

RoxaneB

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#11
Mangement Review can sometimes given Barnum and Bailey a run for the top 3-ring circus (minus the bearded lady). Personally, I'd take a run out on the floor and talk to the people - how they impact quality, what their role is, and how *they* if they're keeping the customer happy.
 
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C

cjssag

#12
curryassassin is nearly spot on the bulls eye. (I know that's probably redundant, but English is my second language. American is my first.)
Sir Robin would be impressed with your accuracy.

Would you not expect "them" to already have all the answers to your questions without the need to audit?

And just who might the "them" be to whom you would direct your questions?

Challenge Clue #3: The buck starts and stops at the same place. (Hint. What part of the fish dies first?)
 
C

cjssag

#13
Mangement Review can sometimes given Barnum and Bailey a run for the top 3-ring circus (minus the bearded lady). Personally, I'd take a run out on the floor and talk to the people - how they impact quality, what their role is, and how *they* if they're keeping the customer happy.
Good. Might take longer than 15 minutes but it might be worth a shot.

BTW, after all my years on this planet I have concluded that either P.T. Barnum was an optimist or his pocket watch had no second hand.
 
#14
curryassassin is nearly spot on the bulls eye. (I know that's probably redundant, but English is my second language. American is my first.)
Sir Robin would be impressed with your accuracy.

Would you not expect "them" to already have all the answers to your questions without the need to audit?

And just who might the "them" be to whom you would direct your questions?

Challenge Clue #3: The buck starts and stops at the same place. (Hint. What part of the fish dies first?)
Sorry, I didn't realize this was a gameshow, kinda thing. Can I phone a friend or do a shout out or something??:rolleyes:

You go to the front office, find the most 'top' member of the management team and you ask......:cool::cfingers:
 
C

cjssag

#15
Sorry, I didn't realize this was a gameshow, kinda thing. Can I phone a friend or do a shout out or something??:rolleyes:

You go to the front office, find the most 'top' member of the management team and you ask......:cool::cfingers:
If that makes you happy;)

How do you say BINGO in English?

And just what would (the collective) you ask him/her?

Challenge Clue #4 What does the Quality Policy have to do with this exercise?
 
P

Pazuzu - 2009

#16
Interesting challenge. Gathering info from previous reviews and current trending would be my angle. If sales are up and NCs are down one could surmise that you have an effective QMS. Yes, there may be smaller, individual hiccups within the QMS that could use some help but from the 80,000 ft view, that's the main parameter.

Sales up, NCs down = effective OVERALL system
Sales up, NCs up = stagnant, but maintaining
Sales down, NCs down = as above
Sales down, NCs up = ineffective OVERALL system
 
#17
Interesting challenge. Gathering info from previous reviews and current trending would be my angle. If sales are up and NCs are down one could surmise that you have an effective QMS. Yes, there may be smaller, individual hiccups within the QMS that could use some help but from the 80,000 ft view, that's the main parameter.

Sales up, NCs down = effective OVERALL system
Sales up, NCs up = stagnant, but maintaining
Sales down, NCs down = as above
Sales down, NCs up = ineffective OVERALL system
Just dealing with numbers like this is a receipe for misleading conclusions, IMHO. Sales up could be because there was a discount offered! NC's down could be because the auditors were lazy or didn't know what they were looking at!:bonk:

As an ex-third party auditor, in the 'old days' of ISO registration one question I was frequently asked was "How do we compare on the number of NC's to other companies?":frust: What kind of question is that?

Any statistics like these numbers are meaningless without knowing the data behind them. See also the recent thread about what gets reported at Management Review from the Internal Audits.............
 
C

cuadra - 2010

#18
The original question is asking about the effectiveness of the Quality Management System.

1- The Quality System is composed of all the ISO clauses plus any other necessary items define by the particular business needs.
2- Internal Audits are typically a sample of one small area within the quality management system.
a. Time needed to complete the internal audit is just one of the parameters that needs to be evaluate as part of the Internal Audit Planning. If the 15 minutes is just an arbitrary number, then it may not be enough to complete an audit in a responsible/ethical fashion.

In General:

The external auditors go thru the same process, they just sample the quality management system under a time constrain scenario.

The objective evidence has to be available and retrievable otherwise a non-conformance may be applicable.

Comment:

If this request really happened, I’ll be extremely concern as Wes Bucey already pointed out.
 
J

JaneB

#19
(The Grouch is back!)

Your boss, the Audit Leader, hands you a new assignment. You are to conduct an audit of the quality system's effectiveness. Your report is due in 15 minutes. Only one of two findings will be acceptable. 1. The quality management system is effective and here is the objective evidence. OR
2. The quality management system is not effective and here is the objective evidence.
How will you conduct the audit? What will be your criteria?
I'd decline to participate. The whole premise is flawed.

The best suggestion in such circumstances has already been made. Use the time to locate & review the managment review minutes.

Just because someone comes up with a ridiculous proposition doesn't mean one has to tear round in circles trying to actually do it.

Mind you, if the so called audit 'leader' actually were handing out such 'assignments', then there's no need to actually attempt to go 'audit' & find out.

That the system is in trouble is already very obvious.
 
P

Pazuzu - 2009

#20
Just dealing with numbers like this is a receipe for misleading conclusions, IMHO. Sales up could be because there was a discount offered! NC's down could be because the auditors were lazy or didn't know what they were looking at!:bonk:

As an ex-third party auditor, in the 'old days' of ISO registration one question I was frequently asked was "How do we compare on the number of NC's to other companies?":frust: What kind of question is that?

Any statistics like these numbers are meaningless without knowing the data behind them. See also the recent thread about what gets reported at Management Review from the Internal Audits.............
Completely agree that it could be a recipe for disaster, but so is asking for objective evidence in 15 minutes. As I mentioned one could assume it's effective. Afterall, if you're asked to present "objective" evidence with only 15 minutes to gather then management in my opinion better not be waiting for 100% flawless and proven data.
 
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