An Internal Auditor Quit - What can I do?

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration with a Mask on...
Staff member
Admin
#11
> our external auditor who "strongly suggested 5 to 6
> "active internal auditors should be made available during
> the last external audit.

Why not just keep farming them out? I do internal audits for several local companies. Once a year. I go in, do the audit, write and submit the report and one of the VP's is responsible for CA, etc. They've never had an internal auditor. The registrar checks to see they followed up on my CAs and I check to see they followed up on the registrar's CAs (as if the regisrtar didn't already - I still re-check). I'm there 6 months after the registrar (they're on 1 year cycles) - so either the registrar or I are there every 6 months. No muss. No fuss. For many companies this is an appropriate way to go. Apparently you've found someone local. Go with it. Save yourself a headache every year.
 
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F

Fire Girl

#12
Thanks for all the great advice guys!

DAvid Mullins- Here's the deal. I'm still in ISO 9K:1994. So auditors cannot audit areas for which they are responsible for.

Marc- That is a promise- you want pics?

energy- I have convinced management to assign the HR girl in the office. She's perfect (don't tell her I said that) for the job! None of the things she does is covered under the Standard.


But now I have another question- I would like to train her myself for the interim so I can get her to help me get caught up on audits. I intend to send her out eventually to get training at our registrar. Do you think internal training will be acceptable for the interim, even though my other auditors were trained outside? Any ideas?

Thanks again!

Fire Girl
:biglaugh: I'm losing it!!
 

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration with a Mask on...
Staff member
Admin
#13
Internal training is OK. You're the trainer - train. I have done internal auditor training for a number of clients. They then use the files from my course and do their own internal course with it.

Auditor question: How do you demonstrate competence after training? I use a test and observation of their setting up and doing an internal audit - most of my larger clients pair a trainee with an 'experienced' auditor for an audit or two.
 
A

Aaron Lupo

#14
Fire Girl why would you have to send her out to be trained to do audits. There is nothing wrong with doing it internally. In fact I would be more than willing to share with you training material I have which I used to train internal auditors at our company. You would have to change things up a little but it should work. Let me know.
:smokin:
 
E

energy

#15
Take a shot

Fire Starter,

We had teams for the "new" internal auditors. They had to perform X amount of time with an experienced auditor until such a time that they could get the External training. That doesn't really help you because of the limited amount of Auditors you have. But, it looks like there are some auditors in this forum available and willing to travel up there to assist you for a modest fee. Or maybe it's the punishment you will meter out if they don't show. Kick me, pinch me, stomp me. No whips please!:lick: :biglaugh: :smokin:
 

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration with a Mask on...
Staff member
Admin
#16
I got this in an e-mail and figured I'd add it...

> Marc,
> Just a quick question you stated that you do internal audits for companies and
> they are on a yearly cycle. Do the Registrars of these companies find this
> adequate? The only reason I ask is that if they are finding problems during
> surveillance audits then internal audits should be occuring more frequently or
> if the CAPA system shows a problem area then that area should be audited more
> frequently. Just wondering???

One time an auditor from a registrar questioned my audit. He said since I found no non-compliances he had reason to believe my qualifications were not adequate. Of course, I was called by my client after the audit. I pointed out that his audit revealed 1 minor and that the previous visit by one of the registrar's auditor (surveillance) revealed no findings. So - how could he determine my audit was deficient by reason of having found nothing 'something' when the company's auditor before me found nothing. The 'finding' was dropped.

How many findings an auditor finds is really a company dependent thing like so many other things. If the company has an internal discipline problem, then minors will be found - an example being employees not completing forms (such as leaving out the date). Look to the findings to determine what the problems are. As opposed to the 'not completing documentation' minor, how about 'not keeping up with corrective actions' or 'corrective actions not acted on in a timely manner'. Ask yourself - is this part of my company's personality? Is it a function of the size of the company? What are the registrar's auditors finding that the internal audits aren't?

> if they are
> finding problems during surveillance audits then internal
> audits should be occuring more frequently or if the CAPA
> system shows a problem area then that area should be
> audited more frequently.

As far as frequency goes, you have to look at your findings. If I saw a consistent problem in an area I would point it out and possibly recommend a re-audit in 6 weeks or something. If the registrar saw it, and then I again saw it 6 months later I might argue for 'more frequent auditing'. To me it's really more of an issue in the corrective action system, however, if the same things keep popping up.

But again - companies have personalities. Some keep the corrective action system very tight and everyone is 'into it'. In other companies the corrective action system is little more than a constant source of internal friction.

So far, the clients I have run pretty tight ships and findings are not easy to come by.

As a reminder: Go back to what your registrar told you. Just because they don't find anything doesn't mean there aren't problems that they may find in a later audit. An audit is a SAMPLE and does not guarantee every problem will be identified (this is their main legal out when it comes to responsibility).

I would be looking at the internal findings and comparing them to the external findings and see how they compare. And remember - your auditors are no better than a registrar's auditors. Just because they find nothing doesn't mean there are no problems. They, as well, are just doing a SAMPLE. Bottom line is check and be able to answer this question:

Are our internal audits effective, and if not why?

Note that when I go in we do all the audits. In, do it, out and report. Most companies which do their own spread them out due to manpower issues.

I know we've had some good discussions here on Auditing Frequency. Do a Search here in the forums - and maybe on the site proper - using those key works --> Audit Frequency
 

E Wall

Just Me!
Super Moderator
#17
Internal Auditor Selection & Training

Do you have a procedure that addresses IA selection and training? If you do and don't want to update it to accomodate 'temporary IAs' how about writing a deviation to cover for the period?

We ran into similar problems, however our registrar stated as long as we can show that the IA doesn't have 'primary' responsibilities...then they can audit. For instance...we also just had an auditor removed for not performing the audits as scheduled...unfortunately that left the QA Manager performing the IA on 4.11 (calibration). Even though the QA Manager does have 'associated' responsibilities...it's the QA Auditor that has 'primary' responsibility, so it is okay! We also have very clear and detailed audit records to substantiate 'objectivity' of the IA. And remember that by using a 'team' approach, the other team member can ask even an 'associated responibility' question by the IA changing roles for that portion of the audit.

We've had 2 different registrar auditors tell us the same thing about this topic. It origionally came up when I first joined the company and asked how could an IA possibly audit element 4.17? and promply arranged for the Corp QA Mgr to audit (hehehe, you shoulda heard the groans I got when I announced that locally) this element the next time he was visiting our site. When it was brought up later to the registrar, he gave the response above and we've handled everything internally ever since with no problems.
 

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration with a Mask on...
Staff member
Admin
#19
I KNEW I was walking the thin line posting that in public...
 
A

Al Dyer

#20
The one that always gets me is the statement on a finding that " the method for XXX in unclear" ****, he was the one that performed the desk audit, the assessment audit that passed, and the "unclear" statement came during a surv. audit.

I did not make a friend of him when I asked why it was "unclear", it was clear to the 11 people at the table.

Maybe he was fishing, but don't fish in my pond unless to bring the game warden with you.

Sorry, sour mood today, out of work!:bigwave:
 
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