An Internal Auditor Quit - What can I do?

E

energy

#31
Mea Culpa!

"1. It's MULLINS"

David, Sorry about the misspelling! Man, you don't know how sorry I am.

David says:
2. "If Greg Mack were here, as he pointed out in a thread earlier this year (which I couldn't find), one person companies can prepare, review and approve documents, so why can't they audit themselves to determine the state of compliance of their business.

I call that running your business the best way you know how. Not conducting an audit. By your definition, I start auditing when I note the condition of my car, the working status of my computer, traffic intersections on the way to work. People always assess situations, like a “one person company” would do, but, are they “auditing” as I thought I knew it? I have my doubts, now, because of your brilliant interpretation of “auditing”. Why have Auditor training? Heck, it’s easy!

David says:
"This compliance is then confirmed via external audits."

Exactly, because you can’t prove compliance, even though YOU say they are auditing. Do you now make your Registrar your Internal Auditors?

David says:
3. "If we followed your thinking, the factory manager couldn't audit anything anywhere in the factory. Don't you have a part to play in the quality of products/services being delivered, therefore you can't audit any of those areas? And on it goes."

Again, that’s what a Factory Manager does. Run the business. He/She are continuously assessing ways to improve production, increase profit, manage personnel, etc. How this results in a written audit report to show compliance escapes me. But then, that was before my world was shattered.

David says:
"Either sit quietly 'til the paint dries"

I use quick drying paint, so it isn’t as long a wait as you think. I also don’t water it down or put in on with a mop and bucket.

David says:
"or take the walk of shame"

Hazard Warning: Rose colored glasses should never be worn continuously.

David says:
"(I assume you have 'the weakest link' in the US)."

That may very well be, but is still stronger than the best links manufactured anywhere else. :biglaugh:
:smokin:
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor
D

David Mullins

#32
good luck FG, either way you can win.

And if it were manufactured in Texas it would be the biggest link, and if manufactured during the Nixon years it'd be the missing link.....

At the end of the day we need to satisfy the requirements of the standard and the needs of the company and customer. It's the compliant manipulation of the standard to meet the company's and customer's needs that makes us great managers of quality.

Outsourcing audits is fine, it's just a shame that you lose the learning potential gained from having your own staff conduct audits. On the flip side, I'm sure Barb and Marc would inject some education during the course of their audits, so we'll put this down to swings and roundabouts (I hope this aussie language isn't confusing you guys). So you can win either way.
 
E

energy

#33
Re: good luck FG, either way you can win.

Originally posted by David Mullins
Outsourcing audits is fine, it's just a shame that you lose the learning potential gained from having your own staff conduct audits.
David,
Our company of 44 people has trained “staff” in Internal Auditing from outside sources. They are the CFO, Human Resource Manager, Materials Manager, 2 Engineers, MIS –System Administrator, 2 Manufacturing employees and myself. (Lead Auditor)
We just have to be aware of “conflicts of interest". It’s not a hard thing to do with this many auditors. These people were “selected” by the GM because of the amount of detailed accurate information they process. The production personnel selected also have shown a lot of attention to detail. They will be valuable auditing Management functions where we determine there may be a problem with “closeness” to a particular procedure.

And, I like the “swings and roundabouts” description. Keep posting, Aussie Bloke.
:smokin:
 
Last edited by a moderator:

barb butrym

Quite Involved in Discussions
#34
the best of both worlds is a partnership with the consultant doing the auditing, and accompanying them with your own personnel....works well for all involved....less time and $$$ invested and everyone wins.....

auditing is best left to people with an auditing mind.....nice if you have some in house, but they are few and far between..or too busy.
 
L

Laura - 2003

#35
possible solution

My last company just took from existing staff a coupla part-time auditors as decided in a MR forum.

How do you think I became involved in quality?
 
#36
Auditing the audits

Who can audit the audit process? [Warning—Long post]

1994 says: “…and carried out by personnel independent of those having direct responsibility of the activity being audited.” The question here is who does the word “those” relate to. If “those” equals the auditor, the auditor cannot audit areas he/she is responsible for. If “those” equals auditee, the auditor must be independent of that person. You can’t audit your spouse, boss, or charges. (my interpretation)

9K2K says: “ensure the objectivity and impartiality” Kinda takes care of the second “those”. “Auditors shall not audit their own work.” Clearly takes care of the first “those”.

Now the point, if there is one. Who audits the audit process is a question that has been around as long as I’ve been in this business. I have posed this question to countless registrars (okay, they can be counted, but you might have to take off your shoes). Here is their collective response. The audit process needs to be free from bias. If the lead auditor, management rep, or other person can show evidence that the audit process is meeting the objectives, then there is no problem. The check is simple. If the internal audit is finding nothing, but external audits are finding bad things, the audit is probably not working. Relying strictly on the third party audit of 7.17, or 8.2.2 does not give a clear indication. Comparing what internal audits find, globally, with what external audits find give a much clearer indication.

I would never be afraid to audit my audit process.

Dave B (the other Dave) ;)
 
D

David Mullins

#37
EASY

The answer, if there is one.
Get your worst or least experienced auditor to audit the internal quality audit program.

WHY?
S/he needs the practice/experience.
You can personally monitor and appraise their performance and offer guidance (after audit completed - not during).
You already know if there are any weak points in the audit program, so you don't need a super auditor to set you straight (I hope).
 

barb butrym

Quite Involved in Discussions
#38
All that is true, although never looked at it quite like that?????

AND the registrar will look very closely at your audit program anyway ...so yeah.....thats a good idea........
 
F

Fire Girl

#39
Ooh- I know!

Let me enlighten you all!

Just kidding. I too have harassed my registrar about the age old, "who audits auditing?" The latest answer I have received is that the person who is responsible for internal auditing may NOT audit Internal Quality Audits. BTW we are still ISO 9K:1994. I audited internal auditing and he did not like that because I look after it. He said that he would prefer to see a regular internal auditor do it.

So that's pretty much all I have to say about that. I have a maintenance audit coming up on Friday and I'm freakin' out!

later all

Fire Girl
 

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration with a Mask on...
Staff member
Admin
#40
I agree with barb butrym.

I also want to take a minute and thank Barb. Barb has been around here for a long time and knows her stuff. Barb has helped a lot of people with answers to their questions. She also (a very big thank you!) has expressed her support for the Cove as a Cove Premium subscriber almost from the beginning of the subscription rollout.

Thanks, Barb. I appreciate you more than you know. :bigwave:
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
J IATF 16949 Internal Audit question - Auditor's responsibility Internal Auditing 6
V Internal Auditor Competency KPI IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 14
B Internal Auditor Competency - Product Auditors Internal Auditing 9
U Internal Auditor not trained but done Audit for some process Nonconformance and Corrective Action 5
M Tips on preparing for IATF 16949 Internal Lead Auditor exam Manufacturing and Related Processes 1
S ISO 13485 Lead Auditor - Debate between our Quality Team and Regulatory Auditor - Internal Auditor Training ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 17
B Internal and external auditor competency to CSR's IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 20
D Impartiality of Internal Auditor ISO 9001/13485 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 18
M IATF 16949 7.2.3 Internal Auditor Competency - Trainer's competency Internal Auditing 7
C Recommendations for UK-based ISO 13485 internal auditor training ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 1
A External Auditor issue with Internal Audits Internal Auditing 7
Q Internal Auditor competence for ISO 14001 ISO 14001:2015 Specific Discussions 11
S IATF 16949: Is "Certified" Internal Auditor mandatory? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 9
S Internal Auditing for API Spec Q1 - auditor qualification requirements Oil and Gas Industry Standards and Regulations 6
J Your opinion on the better training org for IATF16949 Internal auditor and Lead Auditor IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
Q Internal Auditor Training requirements for ISO 14001:2015 ISO 14001:2015 Specific Discussions 5
E Informational I would like to get some Internal Auditor Training Internal Auditing 31
Q What is the difference between normal and licensed internal auditor? VDA Standards - Germany's Automotive Standards 9
J IATF 16949 CAR - Internal Auditor Requirements IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 15
A ISO 13485 - Internal Auditor Independence and Process Owners ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 3
Q AS 9100D internal auditor training requirements Internal Auditing 16
A Other Discussion Boards - Internal Auditor Coffee Break and Water Cooler Discussions 5
E Online training for an internal auditor to AS9120B AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 2
Q Internal Auditor Trainer's Requirement Internal Auditing 4
D IATF 16949 - Internal Auditor Training/Certification Requirements Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 2
R Internal Auditor vs. Public Accountant - Accounting Student Needing Help Career and Occupation Discussions 4
C IATF 16949 Cl. - 7.2.3 Internal Auditor Competency IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 1
C IATF 16949:2016 Cl. 7.2.3 Internal Auditor Competency Requirements IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 39
Q IATF 16949 Cl. 7.2.3 - Internal Auditor Competency and Records IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 5
R Internal Auditor auditing Internal Audit Procedure (AS9100) Internal Auditing 18
Q How can an Internal Auditor Trainer's Competency be Evaluated - IATF 16949 Cl. 7.2.3 IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 10
H ISO/IATF Internal Auditor Recommendations For Manufacturer In California, USA Internal Auditing 3
Casana 2nd Party and Internal Auditor Qualifications & Training IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 13
P Problem with IATF 16949 Clause 7.2.3 Requirements (Internal Auditor Competency) IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
B Competency of Trainer for Internal Auditor Training (IATF 16949) IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 11
C ISO 13485:2016 - Internal Auditor Training vs. Lead Auditor Training Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 4
J Dinged on Internal Audits for supervising an auditor I was training Internal Auditing 10
M Internal Auditor --> Licence needed? Internal Auditing 6
V Internal Auditor Training Documents and PPT Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 5
V Internal Auditor Training Documents and PPT Internal Auditing 3
V Certified Internal auditor is necessary? ISO 9001 requirement? Quality Management System (QMS) Manuals 4
D Can the Plant Manager be our ISO Representative and an Internal Auditor? Internal Auditing 26
M ISO 13485 Audit Questions - Internal Auditor Training and other Requirements ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 10
M Questions about AS9100 Internal Auditor Training AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 14
R Can a external auditor raise a finding that is already identified in Internal Audit ? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 11
P Can internal ISO 17025 Auditor conduct ISO 9001 Audit ISO 17025 related Discussions 7
P Internal Auditor Training - Audit exercises Internal Auditing 5
D Training Material for Internal Auditor Requirements Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 4
U TS16949 Internal Auditor Training - Is On-line training OK? Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 1
F Internal Audit quiz - Auditor Qualifications and Requirements Internal Auditing 34

Similar threads

Top Bottom