ANAB HU # 96 Commissions and Incentives to Consultants by Certification Bodies

Marc

Fully vaccinated are you?
Leader
Are you serious:mg:? That's about as messed up as one can get and one of the biggest "Bozo no-no's" there are. Totally messed up ethics there.
You've been around too long to not know this takes place and has for years.
 
J

Joy

That CLEARLY violates ISO 17021, section 5.2.9
What accreditation body? If it is happening in the A,S&D ICOP Scheme, it is time to involve the OPMT folks. Please note that OASIS has a feedback loop to the AB's now.

Each accreditation body. If I have to select the best for maximum violation it would be JASANZ.Local accreditation body does annual exercise by suspending 1-2 CBs for violation.This year one big name from USA got suspended too but every CB gets their suspension withdrawn.:bigwave:So the CBs believe that accreditation rules are to be managed and everyone is master in that.If some one is not able to do that he cannot survive.

About OASIS feedback system-1.Organisations are not educated 2.They have limited options as there are only 7-8 AEAs in the country and 4 are mainly involved in all audits.Again consultant plays a role as either CB is selected by consulatant or the consultant is selected by the CB-package deal.I heard from few friends that complaint was sent to IAQG,RABQSA and ANAB for different violations but no result.

I started my career in this field as consultant and later worked as a branch head for a CB for six years and seen all these,finally it was felt that I am not suitable for this business.Thanks to my forum friends as their CBs are giving few audit days to survive.

Till I would say that there are people in this industry who try to remain honest but they come and go.Atleast in India honest people in certification industry is endangered species.
 
J

John Martinez

I've heard of cases where not only a consultant "sells" a client to a specific CB, but that same consultant, who also works as a subcontracted auditor for that same CB gets assigned as an auditor to the same organization he just "finished" "assisting" in implementing the system. A clear violation of ISO 17021. But, unless someone blows the whistle, it is almost impossible to be caught.

Unscrupulous behavior at it's worst.

What is also happening is a CB agrees to cross refer for business with a Consultant firm or group (group). The CB refers to the group for consultancy services and the same group recommends the CB for certification services.

The group assigns one person to consult, and then the CB will appoint a different person from that same group to do the audit. No commission is paid to obtain the business; however, it is a conflict of interest non the less.
 
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J

Joy

What is also happening is a CB agrees to cross refer for business with a Consultant firm or group (group). The CB refers to the group for consultancy services and the same group recommends the CB for certification services.

The group assigns one person to consult, and then the CB will appoint a different person from that same group to do the audit. No commission is paid to obtain the business; however, it is a conflict of interest non the less.

Now these are very old practices.CBs and consultants are innovating new ideas though there are many honest consultants.I know few CBs where they operate two companies and the consultancy organisation is normally in wife's name.

So even after ISO 17021,there is not much change in ground reality,only the strtegies are changed.
 
J

John Martinez

Now these are very old practices.CBs and consultants are innovating new ideas though there are many honest consultants.I know few CBs where they operate two companies and the consultancy organisation is normally in wife's name.

So even after ISO 17021,there is not much change in ground reality,only the strtegies are changed.

I'm going to stick with my humble opinion. Conflict of interest, despite their so called honesty.
 
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J

Joy

ANAB has a new Heads Up (#176) on this subject

ABs are only warning and dishonest CBs are finding ways out.Now,CBs are not payig consultants for individual client.Payment is made for Marketing consultancy quarterly/half-yearly or annually.Also return business of give one take one is being practiced.

I am little pessimist about this and believe that it would not stop unless a system is established where the organisation cannot select a CB or consultants can control the selection process.By present system every one is affected.Consultants are not forced to do their best and good consultants are not able to survive in the market.CBs are not able to deliver.ABs are losing their reputation.Organisations are not able to add value to their system through certification.Finally ISO 9001 certification is earnig bad reputation.I don't know if my root cause identification is correct,the senario may change if the customer-supplier relationship between organisation and CB before the audit is eliminated.Customer -supplier relation,only from the start of audit process will be helpful.
 
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J

John Martinez

ABs are only warning and dishonest CBs are finding ways out.Now,CBs are not payig consultants for individual client.Payment is made for Marketing consultancy quarterly/half-yearly or annually.Also return business of give one take one is being practiced.

I am little pessimist about this and believe that it would not stop unless a system is established where the organisation cannot select a CB or consultants can control the selection process.By present system every one is affected.Consultants are not forced to do their best and good consultants are not able to survive in the market.CBs are not able to deliver.ABs are losing their reputation.Organisations are not able to add value to their system through certification.Finally ISO 9001 certification is earnig bad reputation.I don't know if my root cause identification is correct,the senario may change if the customer-supplier relationship between organisation and CB before the audit is eliminated.Customer -supplier relation,only from the start of audit process will be helpful.

Interestingly enough, I had a potential client select the same old infamous registrar because they provided implementation from one of their "divisions" and if chosen, guarantees "certification" from their other "division". Yep, just this week. I wish I could find something in writing about that.
 
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