Anyone make "difficult" employees Internal Auditors?

M

mike101338

#1
I, probably not unlike most companies, have a couple people working for us that spend most of their day trying to challenge the management system. The challenging is done via pointing out others mistakes; idle talk around the water cooler to generate negatism; and challenging of "top management" in public forums, all while being just as faulty as anyone else, myself included.

I have a board member that is telling me to make them internal auditors. Her rational is that by involving them in the system at a higher level than they already are will familiarize themselves with the system. That will increase their knowledge base, show them how the system works, how to change the system for the better and reduce or eliminate the current poor behavior.

Has anyone else tried this approach to garner buy-in with employees that demonstrate a negative attitude to this level. I am concerned that the individuals will take advantage of this position and use it to create more harm than they are currently creating. I don't want to give someone the gun and show them how to use it.

Thoughts, opinions, comments? All are welcome.
 
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J

jmp4429

#2
I think there's two kinds of negative employees. There are the ones who really care about the company's success, are clever enough to recognize flaws in the system, and loud enough to complain about them. In my experience these people are usually bitter because they feel like there's no suitable avenue to communicate their ideas, or like their good ideas are ignored. That's why they are loud and negative.

The second type are just miserable complainers.

I'd say the first type would make great auditors. Giving that position to the second type would be like giving a baby a hammer.
 
L

lrowe

#3
"Difficult" people as auditors

Mike,

In my opinion, this is a bad idea. Auditors need to be impartial and have to have an open mind to be effective at this task. I could easily see someone with this attitude being an auditor that is convinced they will keep looking until they find something wrong. This kind of thing ruins a auditing system integrity, and its hard enough to get people to feel comfortable with auditing to begin with.

As for me regardless of top management’s opinion, no way would I pursue this. If the person is so bad that then it's time to tell them to get in line or get out!

Larry
 

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Staff member
Admin
#4
One of my favorite scenes of the movie Dances With Wolves is when the tribe's council is meeting to discuss the white man who moved into the soldier fort. Wind In His Hair argued the man was of no import; he was of no use to the tribe, and if his medicine was strong (as Kicking Bird suggested because Dunbar had showed no fear when confronting them the first time) then an arrow wouldn't hurt him. When the chief said someone should go meet with Dunbar anyway, the dissenting brave interjected again, pointing out that the great leader Ten Bears shouldn't stoop to the business of a puny lone white man.

Ten bears calmly looked at him and said, "I'm not going. You are going." He added, for the startled Kicking Bird's benefit, "And you are going too."

I thought the scene was a brilliant display of leadership. The dissenter, the naysayer was made a part of the solution. But, and we can't forget this part (though many do) he was not sent without supervision.

In this context I would say it might serve the organization well to make the dissenters part of the solution as auditors, but if:

(1) They agree to the job and express appreciation of what auditing is truly about: helping to ensure the organization maintains operations within its processes as written. Wind In His Hair had the necessary discipline to not violate apparent orders not to shoot Dunbar.

(2) They are properly trained and supervised through feedback of "client" auditees and guided through development of well-written audit reports, tactful CAR involvement, etc.

The tactic can backfire, of course. Not all people are auditor material.

If these people turn out to be chronic well poisoners, I would begin to question their value to the organization beyond simple productivity numbers.
 
M

mike101338

#5
JMP, how do you distinguish between the two. I may have one of each, but as you said I wont give the baby the hammer.

Larry, the impartialness of auditors came up. While discussing the idea with a few people here, one common thought (not mine) is we can use paragraph 7.2 of ISO 19011 to control the person. If they do an audit and are not objective, open minded, diplomatic... then it would fall on my shoulders to correct his/her behavior.

For the record, I dont like the idea but want to make certain I am looking at this objectively. We need to fix the problems. We also need to change the behavior of a select few. Telling them to get in line or get out has crossed my mind, but I dont have that authority. I have communicated my thoughts with several of those above me and their opinion is we need to do what we can to fix it, not by eliminating the employee. :frust:
 
J

Jconlake

#6
If therapy is the goal, why not assign the offenders the job of improving employee morale?

If you intend to reward dissent and insubordination with an increase in responsibility, how will that management practice affect the employees who challenge in the right way, i.e. respectfully and behind closed doors? Are you ready for the result when you train your workforce that the way to get ahead is to be the biggest pain? What behavior do you want to reward and encourage?

How will other employees react to your management practice of assigning jobs to someone other than the best person for the job? Do you want to be known for punishing achievement?

Is not the best auditor a person whose natural personality is detail-oriented?
 

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Staff member
Admin
#7
Jconlake said:
If therapy is the goal, why not assign the offenders the job of improving employee morale?

If you intend to reward dissent and insubordination with an increase in responsibility, how will that management practice affect the employees who challenge in the right way, i.e. respectfully and behind closed doors? Are you ready for the result when you train your workforce that the way to get ahead is to be the biggest pain? What behavior do you want to reward and encourage?

How will other employees react to your management practice of assigning jobs to someone other than the best person for the job? Do you want to be known for punishing achievement?

Is not the best auditor a person whose natural personality is detail-oriented?
These are all excellent questions that might be rightly placed in the highest realms of psychological/sociological study as workplace productivity problems. As though we can solve them like equations--which people certainly are not.

The bottom-line fact is that personnel dynamics are both inputs and outputs that are impacted by almost infinite variables. They are both antagonists and results. With an infinite number if variables of circumstance, person, environment, past reaction and demand one might be forgiven for on-the-spot responses to problems that might be traceable if placed within a controlled study's parameters.

In the end, we can only do what we think is best. Preferably that best is that of our employer and not some personal impetus that makes the problem worse--or could make it better if we but had the power to make it so.

Unfortunately the detail-oriented person might not be best tasked for improvement if that person is not focused on improvement, but always points to the negative--which Dr. Phil describes it as "leveling", the tendency to elevate one's self by devaluing others.

The organization is tasked with deciding who is potentially healthful and who is a chronic well-poisoner, and be held accountable for the decision to act--or not.

Maddening, isn't it?
 
C

cokyat

#8
In the company that I worked with there are no "difficult" workers. All difficult employees were dealt with properly according to what is written in our General Rules and Regulations. I believe that it is the job of HR/ Admin. to deal with difficult people in the workplace. All of my fellow auditors are very competent and responsible, the personnel department carefully choose them by series of examinations and there are no mistakes allowed for the IQA exam.
 
#9
mike101338 said:
The challenging is done via pointing out others mistakes; idle talk around the water cooler to generate negatism; and challenging of "top management" in public forums, all while being just as faulty as anyone else, myself included.
In that case: No, I would not consider bringing them into the auditor pool. What I look for in a prospective auditor is a will to improve and good diplomatic skills. In short I want cooperation and trust. Whiners do not make good auditors. Some old threads:

HOW do you find your internal auditors?
WHERE do you find your internal auditors?
mike101338 said:
Her rational is that by involving them in the system at a higher level than they already are will familiarize themselves with the system. That will increase their knowledge base, show them how the system works, how to change the system for the better and reduce or eliminate the current poor behavior.
As Jconlake so correctly pointed out, that would be to encourage poor behaviour. I would much rather see that they went through the change first. Then, perhaps they could come into question....
mike101338 said:
I am concerned that the individuals will take advantage of this position and use it to create more harm than they are currently creating.
I hear you. I would be concerned too.

That said, jmp4429 makes a good point. There is complaining and there is complaining: A whiner is very different from someone trying to improve matters, but getting no attention.

/Claes
 
B

Baldrick

#10
Familiar?

"A whiner is very different from someone trying to improve matters, but getting no attention."

In most companies, isn't the latter a description of how the quality manager feels, whereas the former is what management thinks of them?.... :)

There are some companies where anyone who points out that something is wrong is perceived as negative, not a team player, not "on message" etc. You wouldn't believe how many senior managers I've met in big companies whose business plan comprises nothing other than mindless, unjustifiable optimism. :frust:

Optimists (or "Ostriches") should be taken out and shot as cowards. They do even more damage to a business than pessimists (at least they want things to get better).

The point is, we need more realists. People who don't ignore the truth, but who embrace it and act accordingly. People who understand the importance of fact-based decision-making.

In answer to the question, given the brief outline you gave about the type of people we're talking about, I would say they'll never make even mediocre internal auditors as long as they've got holes in their a**es.

Auditing is a highly skilled activity - just read section 7 of ISO19011 (auditing guidelines) and ask yourself "how close to this profile do these guys come"? I reckon that 5% or less of a company's employees have the right combination of skills, experience and personal traits to be effective auditors. These guys don't seem to me to be in that 5%.

By all means try to educate them, especially if they are otherwise valuable employees, but audit training isn't the way.
 
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