Applying PPAP to Suppliers - TS 16949 Clause 7.3.6.3

S

Sandra Shepard

#1
I am struggling with clause 7.3.6.3 which requires a product and process approval process approval procedure be applied to suppliers. Since the approval process recognized by our customers is PPAP, I must apply PPAP to my suppliers. My problem with this scenario: PPAP is a TS requirement (not an ISO requirement). Currently (and finally), our suppliers are ISO registered. They are now questioning why we are imposing a TS requirement on them. I have questioned this myself. :confused:

We do not supply Ford, GM, Chrysler, etc., but we do supply Visteon, Delphi, Siemens, TRW, Bosch, etc. I am curious how others are addressing this clause.
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor
T

Teri - 2011

#2
We are also a tier 2 supplier, and we also apply the PPAP process to suppliers. However, not always a level 3. 7.4.1 Type and extent of control over suppliers shall be dependent upon the effect of the purchased product...........and so on.

Sometimes all we require is a warrant and/or a dimensional sheet.

I know this doesn't exactly answer your question.

We haven't been asked by suppliers why we are imposing this requirement as it is stated very clearly what level PPAP is required during the quote process.
 
B

Bill Ryan - 2007

#3
We also supply Delphi, Siemens, Valeo, Dana and other "Tier 1s", as well as, being Tier 1 to GM. The requirement from each of my customers is that WE submit a PPAP package. A few of our suppliers are smaller shops, with no automotive experience other than with us, and would say good-bye to us if we forced the PPAP requirements on them. Normally, the only issue I've had with them concerns the Process Flow Diagram, PFMEA and Control Plan. In those instances where they flat out won't or have no knowledge of the techniques, I either produce one (with their input) or add their "stuff" into mine (a "no-no" but what can you do.....). If they don't have the means to test their product against our customer's Material Specifications we will work with them to get a lab set up to do the validation. At times that means we eat all, or some of, the cost but if the supplier has been with us for a while and has met our expectations (and worked with us, etc.), that's OK. When we have a submission coming due, I will send the supplier a PPAP checklist of what I need for the submission and then follow up/work with them to get the items they can't readily provide. I approve whatever we have decided they are responsible for submmitting.

To date we have had no issues with our customers. That could change next week as we upgrade from "TS1" to TS2" (fun week :rolleyes: ).

My rant for the day (hopefully the only one) - I'm responsible for the submission to my customer. Let me handle my supplier, in a manner I determine, as you, Mr. Customer, are going to beat me up if something goes wrong. The alternative - You (Mr. Customer) manage my suppliers and remove all my responsibility for them.
 

howste

Thaumaturge
Super Moderator
#4
The standard is pretty clear that you have to impose it on your suppliers. You are the customer in this case though, so like Teri said you can specify the level you want submitted.
Sandra Shepard said:
...our suppliers are ISO registered. They are now questioning why we are imposing a TS requirement on them...
They are in the automotive supply chain and should understand automotive requirements. Besides, if you impose the requirement on them, it's a customer requirement, not a TS requirement. If they are all ISO 9001 certified, I'm sure they understand meeting customer requirements...
 
M

MikeL

#5
howste said:
The standard is pretty clear that you have to impose it on your suppliers. You are the customer in this case though, so like Teri said you can specify the level you want submitted.
It's a pain to have to get suppliers to do a PPAP but we have had problems that it would probably sort out.

We also see it as a way of demonstrating our supplier development program if we help our non QS/TS suppliers to do PPAP.

Interested in Quote from above as there is a perception in OZ that level 1 PPAP is less work than a level 3.
 
T

Teri - 2011

#6
Bill Ryan said:
My rant for the day (hopefully the only one) - I'm responsible for the submission to my customer. Let me handle my supplier, in a manner I determine, as you, Mr. Customer, are going to beat me up if something goes wrong. The alternative - You (Mr. Customer) manage my suppliers and remove all my responsibility for them.
:applause:
My thoughts exactly!!
 
A

andrey_or

#7
Just requirements...

Vestion:
"a) The organization is responsible for ensuring that the quality and conformance of their sub-contracted material meets Visteon's requirements. Evidence of conformance of the organization’s sub-contracted material shall be made available at Visteon's request unless it forms a direct part of the supplier's PPAP submission, in which case it will form part of that submission.
d) d. The organization shall cascade the intent of these customer specific requirements to their subcontractors."

Delphi
"Suppliers are responsible for ensuring that sub-suppliers develop a quality management system that facilitates defect prevention, monitoring, and improvement. ....."

DCX
"The organization shall require PPAP from its suppliers".

FORD
"The organization is responsible for managing PPAP for all tiers of subcontractors per the Q1 requirements".

etc...
 
T

TWallace - 2008

#8
This is my first post so please be kind. We are a plastics compounder that on occasion supplies to folks like Visteon. Our suppliers provide bulk resins, minerals, and various chemical addditives.

It seems to me that the PPAP requirement for bulk suppliers is a stretch. The best options that I see is requiring a warrant only.

Any thoughts?
 
J

Jonell

#9
Teri said:
We haven't been asked by suppliers why we are imposing this requirement as it is stated very clearly what level PPAP is required during the quote process.
We do the same here. We spell out very clearly on the quote that a PPAP is required, and at what level. When the job is awarded to the supplier, it is also included as part of the P.O. that we issue to them. Once the supplier accepts the P.O., then they have agreed to it's contents, it's a contract.

Jonell
 
M

MikeL

#10
Contractual Obligations

I think Jonell's approach to it being in the purchase order is important.

I feel sorry for suppliers who get all sorts of resource consuming demands thrust on them after having signed a contract to supply.

If we want our suppliers to do anything other than supply good product on time then it must be part of the contract requirements and factored into the price.
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
N Maximum mains voltage used when applying 60601 IEC 60601 - Medical Electrical Equipment Safety Standards Series 2
C Applying Weibayes to Attribute sampling Reliability Analysis - Predictions, Testing and Standards 0
J US Manufacturer of Export Only Exempt Products applying for CFG 21 CFR Part 820 - US FDA Quality System Regulations (QSR) 0
L What is the very first step to prepare for applying EASA POA? EASA and JAA Aviation Standards and Requirements 1
J Applying for 510K - What is a significant process change and what is not US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) 5
M Importing a Registered Class II Device, the Applying Our Label - Need New 510(k)? 21 CFR Part 820 - US FDA Quality System Regulations (QSR) 5
somashekar Applying legal requirements in hazardous waste management. Miscellaneous Environmental Standards and EMS Related Discussions 1
P Applying Combined Tolerances of Two Scales - Balance Tolerance Question General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 9
C Retroactively applying procedures in ISO 9001:2008 Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 6
A Applying VDA 6.2/6.3 in a Logistics Company VDA Standards - Germany's Automotive Standards 3
P Applying design and development with unknown outcomes ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 2
K Interpreting and Applying 7.3.2 Design and Development Inputs ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 4
N Applying Correction Factors to Furnaces Manufacturing and Related Processes 5
W Applying ISO 9001 Clause 7.3 in Special Case - Oil Refinery ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 12
P HR knows I'm looking and that I've been applying for jobs Career and Occupation Discussions 23
L Applying the Lean Concept in Quality Management Systems Lean in Manufacturing and Service Industries 7
optomist1 Profile of a Surface - Applying Profile of a Surface Geometric Control Symbols Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 6
C Applying Statistical Analysis Methods to Work Safety Occupational Health & Safety Management Standards 3
Y Applying Human Factors and Usability Engineering - FDA Guidance Document 21 CFR Part 820 - US FDA Quality System Regulations (QSR) 1
Q Applying Risk to the Medical Device Document Control Program Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 3
M Applying EN 62304 - Medical Device Software Architecture - Level of Detail IEC 62304 - Medical Device Software Life Cycle Processes 21
S Applying HAZOP and FMEA methods for HSE Hazard Identification in Construction Occupational Health & Safety Management Standards 3
M Consultant required for applying an ISO14001-2004 certification. ISO 14001:2015 Specific Discussions 14
H Problems with RABQSA - Applying for my Provisional Auditor (PA) status ASQ, ANAB, UKAS, IAF, IRCA, Exemplar Global and Related Organizations 3
J Applying Previous Failures to new PFMEA APQP and PPAP 2
W Applying for 510(k) Submission for Blood Glucose Monitor System 21 CFR Part 820 - US FDA Quality System Regulations (QSR) 4
T Applying for FDA 510(k) for 21 CFR 892.2050 21 CFR Part 820 - US FDA Quality System Regulations (QSR) 6
E Financial certification or disclosure statement for applying 510(k) 21 CFR Part 820 - US FDA Quality System Regulations (QSR) 9
E A question about small business qualification applying 510(k) for new product US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) 6
L API (American Petroleum Institute) Monogram - Applying and Removal Process Oil and Gas Industry Standards and Regulations 5
ScottK How to choose professional references when applying for a job? Career and Occupation Discussions 1
N Applying FMEA to all Pre-Production Processes FMEA and Control Plans 5
T Applying Lean Tools in Product Development Lean in Manufacturing and Service Industries 2
S Applying ANSI/ASQ Z1.4 given known lot size and 100% visual inspection AQL - Acceptable Quality Level 2
Y Accurately applying a specific clause to a Non Conformance Internal Auditing 10
A APQP and Food Products - Applying APQP to the production of a new kind of milk APQP and PPAP 3
M Applying AQL when 0 defects are acceptable AQL - Acceptable Quality Level 9
G Whats the difference in applying error factor and correction factor? General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 1
T Applying Scanned Signatures to Documents for Signing Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 11
Q Applying SPC in a Computer Assembly Shop Statistical Analysis Tools, Techniques and SPC 7
C Too Deep? Applying APQP to a Major Component and to Suppliers IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 4
B Applying the principles an practices of C/A - P/A? Corrective Action and children? Nonconformance and Corrective Action 7
Q Applying for internal job but you know 100% that you are not going to get the job Career and Occupation Discussions 10
S Applying principles of lean to a calibration lab? Lean in Manufacturing and Service Industries 8
T Comparison of EU and US GMPs - Differences applying CFR211 or the EU GMPs Pharmaceuticals (21 CFR Part 210, 21 CFR Part 211 and related Regulations) 1
I Lean in the Tool and Die Industry (Job Shop) - Applying Lean in "one-off" production Lean in Manufacturing and Service Industries 6
U Applying Lessons Learned to other products Misc. Quality Assurance and Business Systems Related Topics 2
Tim Folkerts Applying FMEA to National-Level Issues FMEA and Control Plans 10
W Applying MTBF and MTTR to Maintenance Misc. Quality Assurance and Business Systems Related Topics 2
Q And now, let's add software development - Medical Devices - Applying ISO9001:2000 ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 12

Similar threads

Top Bottom