Approval of Documents - Is Verbal Approval good enough?

#31
Dave - what about the QSR?
Could you be more specific? QSR could mean a lot of things to a lot of people. If you are referring to Quality System Requirements, then show me a "shall" on documenting approval.

In my opinion, too many folks are getting too wrapped up in "evidence", and forgetting about why you need approval. Why control documents at all? Because you want to "ensure the effective planning, operation and control of its processes". I do not build my Quality Management System to appease some auditor. I build it to function. Adding signatory approvals when they are neither mandated, nor useful is adding waste and actually works against the effectiveness of the QMS.
 
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Bill Pflanz

#33
By the time you have done everything verbally, documented the conversation and kept it available for an audit, it appears to me it would be just as easy to have the manager provide the approval.

Bill Pflanz
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#34
Could you be more specific? QSR could mean a lot of things to a lot of people. If you are referring to Quality System Requirements, then show me a "shall" on documenting approval.

In my opinion, too many folks are getting too wrapped up in "evidence", and forgetting about why you need approval. Why control documents at all? Because you want to "ensure the effective planning, operation and control of its processes". I do not build my Quality Management System to appease some auditor. I build it to function. Adding signatory approvals when they are neither mandated, nor useful is adding waste and actually works against the effectiveness of the QMS.
Approval is necessary. Recording the approval is not.
By the time you have done everything verbally, documented the conversation and kept it available for an audit, it appears to me it would be just as easy to have the manager provide the approval.

Bill Pflanz
Dave is on the right track here. Approval is necessary to assure the system does not get bollixed, as configuration management and document management are also necessary, BUT nowhere does any Standard say how many approvals are necessary. I recall one outfit which required seven signatures to authorize an office manager to buy a case of typing paper! What a waste of time and energy of at least 6 folks! Worse, even after the purchase, more signatures were necessary to approve payment. Thus a $40 case of paper ended up costing about $250 in labor of all the signatories.

The intent of ALL the Standards is to use common sense in running a business. There is no one-size-fits-all solution.

We document for two reasons:

  1. it helps the business run smoothly so we can perform periodic evaluations and have some yardsticks to measure with
  2. some of us have regulatory issues (laws, patent protections, etc.) which demand documentation, mostly to protect the organization.
A POSSIBLE SOLUTION:
It seems to me, in the OP's situation, the manager has de facto given the power of approval documentation to OP. Thus, a one-time signed document to that effect protects both the manager and OP from future second-guessing by anyone.
 

Ettore

Quite Involved in Discussions
#35
I think that here there is someone accreditated to write down a question for interpretations to http://www.tc176.org/Interpre.asp
The question is:
Request:
ISO 9001:2000 Clause's 4.2.3
Does verbal approval is good enough ?"

Or something in better english so that the question will be for ever clear
 

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#36
I think that here there is someone accreditated to write down a question for interpretations to http://www.tc176.org/Interpre.asp
The question is:
Request:
ISO 9001:2000 Clause's 4.2.3
Does verbal approval is good enough ?"

Or something in better english so that the question will be for ever clear
The TC 176 interpretations do have three concerning 4.2.3, none of which is quite on point, but the one on element 6.3 does have some bearing on this point. As all should be aware, 6.3 deals with infrastructure. The question was raised if it was necessary to keep records of maintenance. The answer is no. No further explanation was given, as though it should be evident as to why. The most logical reason in my opinion is that 6.3 does not say that records are needed and 4.2.4 is not referenced.

Draw your own conclusions, but for those of you that insist that records of document approval are necessary, SHOW ME THE SHALL! You can't. It isn't there.
 
K

Ka Pilo

#37
Approval is necessary. Recording the approval is not.
Slightly :topic:
Is internal audit necessary?

Going back to "approval of documents",
the question would be "How do you audit process owner (past approvals) against
4.2.3(a) for verbal approval?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#38
Going back to "approval of documents",
the question would be "How do you audit process owner (past approvals) against
4.2.3(a) for verbal approval?
That was covered in post 25. An auditor needs to audit your practice and that would be from interviewing and / or observing. An auditor may need to interview and / or observe more than one person.

Sure, it would be easier to audit if they kept records, but that doesn't give an auditor the right to demand records. You work with the hand you are dealt.
 
K

Ka Pilo

#39
That was covered in post 25. An auditor needs to audit your practice and that would be from interviewing and / or observing. An auditor may need to interview and / or observe more than one person.

Sure, it would be easier to audit if they kept records, but that doesn't give an auditor the right to demand records. You work with the hand you are dealt.
Sure, but you cannot audit "past" verbal approvals.
 
J
#40
Sure, but you cannot audit "past" verbal approvals.
You also cannot write up as a non-conformance, something you cannot observe.
If procedures are accurate, being followed and the output is good...
If everyone you talk to seems to have a good grasp of the system and how it works....If rejections, returns, rework etc is under control....If you are told by multiple people that "We request a change - Joe makes the change - we check it - and Joe issues it....
It can hardly matter that you can't "Audit past approvals". What you have discovered, and have evidence of, is that the "system" is in place, understood, functioning properly and effective...

If on the other hand you discover the opposite of the above, if you discover outdated documents, poor understanding, conflicting answers etc, then you have evidence to question the process....Whether you can see documented "past approvals" or not.

I think that the bottom line is that, and effective system can and does work well without a lot of "sign-offs" while a poor and/or ineffective system will still be ineffective with a whole "drawer full" of sign-offs.

Peace
James
 
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