Approved Supplier List (ASL): Document or Record?

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration with a Mask on...
Staff member
Admin
#11
I think some of you are seriously over thinking this for poor Gidget!

It's a document, plain and simple! If a supplier is added to it and the document is revised, then the previous one - without the 'new' supplier is an 'obsolete' document - for retention if required. No record about it!

This is basic blocking and tackling.......
I disagree. It starts out as a form, which is a *type* of document. Each completion of a form becomes a record. But - I understand the ambiguity.
 
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Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#13
It could be both. The template, or blank form that the list is on, would be a document. When your approved suppliers are added to it, it becomes a record.
If you have two different versions (of what you're calling a record) how do you tell which is current?
OK, what does that have to do with it being a document or a record?
In general, we don't control records the same way we do other types of documents. (A record is a document, btw.) If you control the form for the ASL, and when supplier information is added to it, you wouldn't change the revision level of the form, because it hasn't changed. My question was about how to control the record once supplier information is added to it. Some level of control over the information on the form is necessary, I think. Who can add suppliers, or remove them? What's the process for adding/removing? When is it permissible to use suppliers that aren't on the list? If you control only the form, none of the other necessary controls are accounted for. If I have a printed copy of the list, how can I tell whether it's current or not if only the form is controlled?
 

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration with a Mask on...
Staff member
Admin
#14
(A record is a document, btw.)
A record is one of many types of documents.
If you control the form for the ASL, and when supplier information is added to it, you wouldn't change the revision level of the form, because it hasn't changed.
Correct.
My question was about how to control the record once supplier information is added to it.
This will be system specific. It will also depend upon, for example, whether the system is paper, electronic, or a combination of the two.
Some level of control over the information on the form is necessary, I think.
Correct. The information on the form is defined by the form content. Since the form its self is controlled, what an employee fills in is consistent with whatever version of the form that they are using.
Who can add suppliers, or remove them?
It depends upon who the specific system designates.
What's the process for adding/removing?
The specific system will define the process.
When is it permissible to use suppliers that aren't on the list?
That is just another aspect which the system (procedure, typically) will define.
If you control only the form, none of the other necessary controls are accounted for. If I have a printed copy of the list, how can I tell whether it's current or not if only the form is controlled?
Again, the specifics of the system will define this aspect.

Forms are completed in companies every day, often by many different people, and typically the forms, once completed, become records. The point is the defined system specific to the company will (or should) define these aspects. :2cents:
 
#15
I disagree. It starts out as a form, which is a *type* of document. Each completion of a form becomes a record. But - I understand the ambiguity.
I can't agree. On the basis that every time a document had information (not data) added to it (or subtracted) it doesn't become a record, does it?

If a procedure is amended from rev 1 to rev 2, rev 1 isn't a record! The records are the results of following the procedure! The procedure is more or less 'inert' no 'data' added or subtracted.

Let's say the ASL has 2 suppliers added and 1 removed (it is revised to 'd' from 'c') rev 'c' isn't a record! It's just simple document change control we're talking about! The record is whatever was the data of supplier evaluations, performance etc. that was used to change the ASL......

By calling every 'previous version' of any document a record you've just created a bureaucracy of imponderable proportions in many cases.......

I really think that by suggesting a change to a document
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#16
Forms are completed in companies every day, often by many different people, and typically the forms, once completed, become records. The point is the defined system specific to the company will (or should) define these aspects. :2cents:
My point is that in terms of the standard (and perhaps I didn't make it clear), I don't think it's a good idea to characterize a dynamic document as a record.
 

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration with a Mask on...
Staff member
Admin
#17
I can't agree. On the basis that every time a document had information (not data) added to it (or subtracted) it doesn't become a record, does it?
Not every document is a form. Your failure mode is to not recognize that a form is a type of document.

If a procedure is amended from rev 1 to rev 2, rev 1 isn't a record!
A form isn't a procedure per se, although I have seen many forms which are to some degree a 'procedure'. I have even seen forums which have instructions on them (sometimes on the back of the form).
The records are the results of following the procedure!
And the procedure typically defines what form or forums to complete, what data must be on it, etc. must be filled in and by whom (who is responsible for entering what data).
The procedure is more or less 'inert' no 'data' added or subtracted.
Correct. The procedure defines how the system operates. Again, a form is a type of document just as a procedure is a type of document.

Let's say the ASL has 2 suppliers added and 1 removed (it is revised to 'd' from 'c') rev 'c' isn't a record!
You haven't worked in military manufacturing or semi-conductor (to name two) where it may become an issue as to which suppliers where on the approved supplier list at some point in time (maybe last year in September, for example) if/when a problem arises. And it can be a legal issue depending upon the effect of the problem. I have been in situations where a problem came up and we had to go back through the supplier list as it was back when the parts were purchased to see if they were, at the time, an approved supplier or not at the time of the purchase. I was working at a company in the 1980's where the DIA (Defense Intelligence Agency) was investigating a problem and they wanted proof that a supplier was on the approved supplier list when certain parts were purchased. The supplier list was a form, and each time it was changed you had to keep a copy of the previous 'version' (it became a record).
It's just simple document change control we're talking about!
Essentially yes.
The record is whatever was the data of supplier evaluations, performance etc. that was used to change the ASL......

By calling every 'previous version' of any document a record
We're discussing FORMS, not "any document".
you've just created a bureaucracy of imponderable proportions in many cases.......

I really think that by suggesting a change to a document
If you fail to understand that there are many types of 'documents', and that a form is just one type of document, I'm sure none of this will make sense.
 
#18
Our ASL is just a list of approved suppliers, nothing else. No evaluation information, "supplier since" dates, nothing....just the suppliers listed in alphabetical order, the revision number of the list, and revision date. And I do believe it is maintained as an Excel file.

Thanks for your reply, world quality. :agree:
This isn't a 'form' it's just a list. A form has some fancy lines and boxes and stuff to help somebody to know what data needs to be recorded and where. Gidget never mentioned a form, only Big Jim!

A listing of supplier names is just that and, as such, is a document. I fully get that a form is a document etc. But in your case, Marc, the situation could have been recreated from (possibly) the Document Change notice which would have detailed the change and the reason for the change, along with approvals etc. Now that is a record, agreed. However, I still maintain that the ASL is just a list not a record. I guess we'll just have to differ in our approaches!!:agree1:
 

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration with a Mask on...
Staff member
Admin
#19
This isn't a 'form' it's just a list.
So - Let's say the content of the list changes and they add (or remove) fields in the future.

It may be an excel spread sheet, and it may be a list, but both the content of the list (as in the fields of the list) and the content of the fields in the list can, and probably will, change over time.

A big part of this discussion that isn't really focused upon is the specific needs and requirements of the company and product(s). In some companies it may not be a big deal if a supplier is approved or not, nor is it a big deal keeping a history (whether you want to call each revision a record or not) of changes. On the other hand if the company is, for example, an aerospace company supplying the military navigation electronics (just as an example) a record of what suppliers were approved at a given time, as well as the approval process at that time, can be important. As I mentioned, I was in a company in the 1980's where the DIA came in and wanted a history of their ASL list going back several years, as well as the way (procedure) the company approved suppliers at that time as well as changes between then and the time they came in for the investigation.

On the other hand, if the company is making little plastic separators used to separate tile when it is laid, the list and changes to it probably aren't going to be a big deal.
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#20
However, there seems to be a mutual understanding among several people here that it is actually a controlled document.

My question: is there any definitive answer to the question posed in this thread's title? If so, where might it be found - in a standard or regulation somewhere, perhaps? :bonk:

Thanks, y'all....:bigwave:
It is a controlled document...as a record.

ISO 9000:2005
3.7.6 record -
document (3.7.2) stating results achieved or providing evidence of activities performed



When the list is changed it's a document (revised, reviewed) under 4.2.3, once done it's a record under 4.2.4.

And you know what? As long as it's controlled somehow it doesn't matter.
 
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