Are 3rd party (ISO9001 Registrar) auditors allowed to provide "Recommendations" ?

Should / Can Registration Registrar auditors provide recommendations?

  • Recommendations for Closure of nonconformance

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    31

Govind

Super Moderator
Staff member
Super Moderator
#1
Recently, I was having a discussion in this subject with one of our management staff.

I was always given the impression that the Third party auditors (Registration body) are not allowed to provide recommendations for correcting deficiencies, since this may be considered as a potential bias.

I wanted to clarify this and reviewed “The Quality Audit handbook” by J.P.Russell. In Page 111, he says that if requested by the client, Auditors may provide recommendations. He suggests placing Recommendations in an appendix separately. Also adds, In most cases, that auditee is not obligated to implement auditor’s recommendation.

This is interesting with current Registrar-Organizations relationships that exist in many cases. Registrars project themselves in advertisements as a “Value added service provider”. Some organizations also expect the 3rd party auditor to provide directions on complex issues with respect requirement implementation. This is a catch 22 situation. If auditor is not providing recommendations, the organizations may not prefer the registrar. If they did, they may become biased towards auditing the Corrective action since they recommended that in the first place!

1. Having said that, would you prefer the registration auditor to provide recommendations?

2. Have you had experiences where you had implemented a different approach from what the registration auditor recommended and convinced the auditor that you were right?

Govind.
 
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S

SilverHawk

#2
Auditors spending only 36 hours at your premises and expected to tell you how to run a business. The auditor is trying to be too smart.

The auditor should not make any suggestion or recommendation. Beside, the auditor is not an expert in the 38 industrial filed. The auditor has his own limitation. He may not know the latest and the best way to run a business.

I have recently read the IATF Rules 2nd. EDiiton dratf which suggest that "Opportunity for Improvement " MAY NOT be requested to be issued by the auditors. It is a right approach for the auditor NOT to give any crazy recommendations and insisted the organization to adopt and adapt them withoiut realizing its practicality.
 

DannyK

Trusted Information Resource
#3
Recommendations

As a third party auditor I cannot make recommendations. I am only allowed to state the facts. Third party auditors have to avoid making recommendations since it can be interpreted as consulting.


Danny
 
B

baubin - 2004

#4
1. I prefer the auditor to provide some recommendations. Although so many companies have been approved by the auditor, the QMS level of each company is quite different. so while auditing your company, the auditor may unconsciously compare it with others. From this point, he could give you some opinions. Surely he could not directly transfer the good things in other companies to you...
2. I have experienced several auditings. Each time the auditor would discuss something with me regarding how to do the job better. But this kinds of recommendations would not be regarded as the nonconfomance to ISO 9001. Generally the recommendations comes at the end meeting orally or at the dinner table.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Randy

Super Moderator
#5
I think we've beat this topic up more than once to the same conclusion....a draw!

Normally auditors, to maintain thier independence of the activity, refrain from providing specific recommendations, but do often provide possible solutions or sources whereby solutions may be found. This is mainly done through explaining what they have seen done by other organizations under similar circumstances.

Silverhawk!!! "The auditor is trying to be too smart." It's hard not to be smart with an IQ around 160. Also remember that there's a herd of auditors that have experience in more than 1 or 2 industries, and they bring that experience with them.
 
#6
IMO, 3rd party auditors should refrain from making recommendations , primarily because that recommendation is always biased. It's either based on their own opinion or on something they seen somewhere else. This should also apply to opportunities for improvement. In the TS2 world OFI's requie a response just the same as an NCR. A negative response to an OFI creates friction between the organization and the registrar causing an unpleasent relationship.
As for "not hard to be smart with an IQ of 160"; My first week at PI I met a kid with an IQ of 150+ who couldn't put his boots on the right feet. A person can be "book smart" and "reality stupid".
 
R

Rob Nix

#7
As Randy stated, this is a rather worn subject. But I'll add my own two cents anyway.

3rd party auditors are there to establish conformance only. That should be the overriding principle. They have to be careful NOT to act as consultants (that is a requirement for registrars). Yet there is an animal called "Opportunities For Improvement". So there is some "gray area".

If I've struggled with compliance in a certain area, I usually have no problem with the auditor telling me what he's seen done in other places to meet the requirement. In that way, (s)he's not really making "a suggestion", but still giving you fodder for thought.
 
F

Franco_1965

#8
DannyK said:
Third party auditors have to avoid making recommendations since it can be interpreted as consulting.
:agree1:

Think also of previous recommendations possibily given by an another auditor.

How do you deal with possibile nonconformity due to the fact that the organization acted according to the other auditor's recommendations ? :argue:

Please, do NOT give recommendations.
 

Govind

Super Moderator
Staff member
Super Moderator
#9
I am getting an impression from both Randy and Rob that this topic was discussed earlier in this forum? I always perform a search before posting any new thread.I did not get the results for my keywords Auditor + recommendations. I guessing probably these auditor recommendation could have been discussed between the posting of some threads.

On the other hand there are many members who join everyday and may not know about those previous discussions. This new thread will provide an opportunity for them to participate as well.This is a subject almost everyone in Quality encounter.

I started this thread because one of our management staff was asking me, what value addition the auditor provides if they are only identifying the findings and not providing any recommendations to close those findings?

I was always given the impression that the Third party auditors (Registration body) are not allowed to provide recommendations for correcting deficiencies, since this may be considered as a potential bias.
(This perception is echoed by almost all members who posted the reply)

I said that auditor should not provide recommendations. But wanted to authenticate my reply.


I started to dig up the standards and books from authority in this subject to see if my perception is right?

Surprisingly:

ISO19011:2000 Page 20, section 6.6.1 subclauses o. Guideline says:
recommendations for improvement, if specified in the audit objectives.

This can be interpreted as "opportunities for improvement" of a possible condition in a system which could potentially deteriorate to a nonconformance OR
Recommendations for improving a situation due to an existing non conformance.

Audit Objective: For a 3rd party audit, always compliance to a system standard. Iam not aware if any organization has a contract with 3rd party registrar to also provide recommendations.

Also in my first posting, I have quoted reference from J.P Russell book.

This is the reason, I started this thread to get a clarity and find any authentic reference that says that Auditor shall not provide recommendations.
I don't have copies of standards that are used by Registration and Accreditation bodies. Is there anything coming from those standards that does not allow Auditors not to provide recommendations?

Govind.
 
E

engjane

#10
Im sorry if Im dragging on a tired thread but having just been through an audit, I wanted to say that the information our auditors gave us (not consulting, not recommending) was invaluable.
They have so much experience of other industries and companies and also they have had a lot more opportunity to translate the standards. To get no value from them would be such a waste.
Imagine meeting the Dalai and not asking any questions or gleaning any wisdom!

Anyway, thats my ha'penny's worth.
:yes:
 
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