Are 3rd party (ISO9001 Registrar) auditors allowed to provide "Recommendations" ?

Should / Can Registration Registrar auditors provide recommendations?

  • Recommendations for Closure of nonconformance

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    31

xfngrs

Quite Involved in Discussions
#51
Auditor Recommendations

We recently had one of our last QS9000 audits and specifically asked our auditor to recommend what we needed to improve/set up for TS registration.

He would go through the audit like QS, then at the end of a section when he would be noting CA's, or OFI's, he would tell us "that for TS you would also need something like.....". It was very helpful in that we now have a list of some 20 items to add to our CIM process for the TS preparation.

I thought it was great to get that input. And I also thought he did a great job in separating what was for now and what was for later.
 
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Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#52
xfngrs said:
We recently had one of our last QS9000 audits and specifically asked our auditor to recommend what we needed to improve/set up for TS registration.

He would go through the audit like QS, then at the end of a section when he would be noting CA's, or OFI's, he would tell us "that for TS you would also need something like.....". It was very helpful in that we now have a list of some 20 items to add to our CIM process for the TS preparation.

I thought it was great to get that input. And I also thought he did a great job in separating what was for now and what was for later.
I certainly agree the additional "gap analysis" service was VERY "customer-centric."

Has anyone thought about WHY we have so many disparate (not "desperate") opinions about the value of auditors making comments that can be construed as "consulting?"

I think it boils down to two main schools of thought:
  1. the auditor is "coddling" the auditee to ensure it will pass the audit.
    (my response is "so what?" - The end result of a auditee which meets the requirements is the goal; why make it harder and more expensive to reach that goal?)
  2. the auditor is trying to force the auditee into a rigid mold of the auditor's way of thinking
    (I'm definitely against this)
There may be some consultants out there who feel their livelihood is threatened by auditors "consulting." (my answer is "most people want to do it right the first time, not wait to repair a process AFTER an audit." Therefore, consultants have to emphasize that in their sales pitch.)

There may be some auditors who resent having to give "free" service to compete against other auditors who add free advice to the audit. (all I can say is "the marketplace ultimately decides the best value.")
 
A

AllanJ

#53
Wes Bucey said:
Has anyone thought about WHY we have so many disparate (not "desperate") opinions about the value of auditors making comments that can be construed as "consulting?"

I think it boils down to two main schools of thought:

There may be some auditors who resent having to give "free" service to compete against other auditors who add free advice to the audit. (all I can say is "the marketplace ultimately decides the best value.")
Possibly you are right, Wes. But, I think there is another reason why some auditors/ registrars are pleased to hide behind the "conflict of interest/ don't offer solutions" argument: they do not know enough about systems, processes or whatever to be able to add value.
 
A

Aaron Lupo

#54
AllanJ said:
Possibly you are right, Wes. But, I think there is another reason why some auditors/ registrars are pleased to hide behind the "conflict of interest/ don't offer solutions" argument: they do not know enough about systems, processes or whatever to be able to add value.
And you say you don't have an axe to grind?
 

Cari Spears

Super Moderator
Staff member
Super Moderator
#57
xfngrs said:
We recently had one of our last QS9000 audits and specifically asked our auditor to recommend what we needed to improve/set up for TS registration.

He would go through the audit like QS, then at the end of a section when he would be noting CA's, or OFI's, he would tell us "that for TS you would also need something like.....". It was very helpful in that we now have a list of some 20 items to add to our CIM process for the TS preparation.

I thought it was great to get that input. And I also thought he did a great job in separating what was for now and what was for later.
We just did the same thing yesterday at our ISO surveillance audit. We requested that our registrar send an AS qualified auditor for our last planned ISO surveillance - our next audit will be an upgrade/registration audit to AS9100. Our auditor was great!

I too thought our auditor did a fantastic job of separating what was ISO - "but for AS you will need to..." or "for ISO this is a minor, but for AS it would be a major" or "I've seen other AS registered companies handle this this way", etc. We learned a lot and he confirmed where I thought I was on the right track - but wasn't sure.

In addition, though he is an experienced auditor, he's brand new to our registrar so he was accompanied by another auditor who happens to be their new Technical Manager (the last one having been promoted to General Manager) so it was very cool to meet him also. He was just there to observe their new auditor and help him out with the paperwork and stuff - but like I always say - I always make a point of making friends with the TM.

I was a little bummed that the other guy wasn't the TM anymore because he was always soooo helpful whenever I had a question, but now I feel better having met the new one. I like the term Wes used - "customer-centric". I'd recommend our registrar to anyone.
 
Last edited:

Hershal

Metrologist-Auditor
Staff member
Super Moderator
#58
Wow.

As I struggled to catch up on the thread, I got the impression of an "us vs them" flavor in some of the posts.

Folks, we may be on different oars, but we're in the same boat!

Now, how I handle the OFIs (by whatever name) is to point out that they are observations, opportunities to improve, specifically not binding or prescriptive.....but that these are concepts that I think they may find value in.....they are free to examine, adopt, or discard.

Just a note on might be considered an OFI. When I examine the provisions in ISO/IEC 17025 regarding electronic documentation, a suggestion to add anti-spyware, while technically only a suggestion, is often considered a value added suggestion, and a reasonable one. Hence, an OFI often is a potential way to improve the lab/agency or to enhance compliance.

Hershal
 
#59
Allan,

In your latest post in this thread you suggested a change of its title to "Is it time to remove the constraints under which registrars have been expected to operate?" I thought that question deserved a thread of its own and split it off to an new thread named as per your suggestion. Here it is:

Is it time to remove the constraints under which registrars have been expected to operate?

AllanJ said:
The title of this thread is "Are 3rd party ...allowed to provide "Recommendations".

I would refer you to my article in the Reading Room about "Auditing - at the Dawn of Opportunity" in which you will see my views that registrars must be allowed to provdie solutions etc to problems because as you rightly say, Hershal, we ARE all in the same boat and considering the current economic performance of the US economy (Current account deficit, exchange rate, fiscal deficit etc) it is not doing as well as politicians would have one believe. It is time to DUMP COI concerns and allow anyone who has useful knowledge and solutions to help business improve.

So, this thread's question should really now be : "Is it time to remove the constraints under which registrars have been expected to operate", which is what I raise in that speech. We must look ahead. The current title of this thread does not move us forward and business cannot wait on us getting our house in order.
/Claes
 
B

Bruce55

#60
Select Your Third Party Auditor Carefully

This is why is important to select your registrar carefully. I have picked third party auditors that I know will be receptive to a request for knowledge about how other companies resolve a concern. Both the auditor and the auditee gain new ideas from each other. Your company benefits when both are open to intelligent discussion. A third party auditor who enjoys his occupation also enjoys helping individuals to improve their business. ASQ CQA
 
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