Are auditing checklists required for Internal Audits?

[Big Jim]

Auditing checklist is an Aid... Not an all in all
And if the checklist is made by someone else, then its a very poor aid.

One of the things I remember from my early ISO training is that a checklist is a SERVANT, not the MASTER.

One of the things I dislike about auditing to an element based checklist (one that marches through the standard one shall at a time from 4.1 through 8.5.3) is that it forces you to pay attention to the minutia, like thoroughly inspecting a tree a leaf at a time, causing you to lose the big picture. Sort of like forgetting that those leaves belong to a tree and that tree is part of a forest.

 

[MrPhish]

Has anyone thought of using a turtle diagram to record the results of an internal audit? The diagram then becomes the objective evidence an audit was done, and the diagram is certainly a tool for checking a process. From that point forward, just use the existing turtle diagram as the guide for the next audit. Make any new changes (improvements) to the diagram. Now you have process improvements, process interaction and internal audits all happening with the same set of documents. What am I missing (i.e. ISO requirement) that stops this from happening?

 

[AndyN]

Has anyone thought of using a turtle diagram to record the results of an internal audit? The diagram then becomes the objective evidence an audit was done, and the diagram is certainly a tool for checking a process. From that point forward, just use the existing turtle diagram as the guide for the next audit. Make any new changes (improvements) to the diagram. Now you have process improvements, process interaction and internal audits all happening with the same set of documents. What am I missing (i.e. ISO requirement) that stops this from happening?

I believe this was partly the intent of using them! Other than that, I hate them... (but I do like the idea of using the [same] planning tool as the record of the objective evidence).

 

[John Broomfield]

Has anyone thought of using a turtle diagram to record the results of an internal audit? The diagram then becomes the objective evidence an audit was done, and the diagram is certainly a tool for checking a process. From that point forward, just use the existing turtle diagram as the guide for the next audit. Make any new changes (improvements) to the diagram. Now you have process improvements, process interaction and internal audits all happening with the same set of documents. What am I missing (i.e. ISO requirement) that stops this from happening?

MrPhish,

Provided you fulfill the audit objective nothing stops you from using a turtle diagram to see how well the process you are auditing is supported by some of the other processes in the system.

Such as the providing and maintaining the required facilities and equipment, delivering competent operators, delivering the required information and ensuring the operators know the requirements and care about meeting the requirements including the process objectives.

Given an audit objective it's a good idea to prepare by knowing, even vaguely, what to look at, who to listen to and why. The answer may be to use a turtle diagram as tool to help you to fulfill the audit objective without taking the same sample every time.:mg:

Best wishes,

John