Are ISO9000 certificates ever withdrawn?

B

BrianHu

#1
Has anyone every heard of a company losing their ISO9000 certification?

Is it fair to assume that the loss of income to the external auditors makes them reluctant to kill a revenue source by withdrawing certification?

Brian Hu
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor
#2
A rare occurence indeed

It happens, but I've heard about but a few cases. Those I have heard about have mostly concerned changed scopes, mergers, splits or other changes that have changed the grounds for the certification. I have not once heard about a certification being withdrawn because of poor performance (That is not to say that it never happens, of cource).

And I agree with Jim: Withdrawn certifications would almost certainly be more common but for the loss of revenue.

/Claes
 

barb butrym

Quite Involved in Discussions
#3
Yes it happens

NO , not due to revenue,,,,,,IMHO> its due to the surveillance interval (typ 6 mos.) its hard to have a total breakdown...I mean Total with no recovery in 6 months. Clients are put on warning and often pull the interval to 3 months or other such action before a cert is pulled. As pulling the cert is a serious thing.......all this is blind to the world so I see why the perception is $$$$$
 

RoxaneB

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#4
To me, it's all about money...and in some cases ethics. I learned two things about business when I minored in that at school. The first was that all Engineering students had to mock the 'artsies' while we could...for they would sign our pay cheques out in the Real World. Second, you're in business for one reason and one reason only...to make $$$. It's a cold hard fact, but if Registrars revoked certificates, they lose a source of income. Revoke too many and soon *they're* out of business.

Ethics plays a big part too. A sister company once had a surveillance audit coming up and they had completely dropped the ball over the previous six or so months. Their QMS was a programmed in title only...no work was done to maintain it. CEO had lunch with the auditors (and he was notorious for always being 'unavailable' during previous audits) where the theme was 'You-scratch-our-backs-we'll-scratch-yours'. :( The company passed their audit with flying colours...no findings, no OFI's, nothing.

It's enough to make me question why I continue to remain in this realm of Quality. I guess I'm enough of an optimist to realize that a few bad cases are not representative of all Registrars or auditors. Or I hope that if I stay with it long enough, eventually I'll be in a position to make a change for the better. :)
 

Mike S.

Happy to be Alive
Trusted Information Resource
#5
Jim said: "Example: to my certain knowledge there are dozens (probably hundreds and possibly thousands) of 1994 registered organisations with no quality objectives."

Jim, this post started by asking about withdrawn certs -- in this example a cert should not have been given, but once it had been given the auditor would have had to change their mind to revoke the cert. So this point, to me, has nothing to do with revokation.
 

barb butrym

Quite Involved in Discussions
#6
no doubt there are certs that should never have been given, some that should be revoked some incompetence, and some lousy ethics......................its not a perfect world after all.....and all of that sucks. BUT that said, its still a good system, for the most part.

As far as $$$$, the cost competition makes registration less than a huge money maker..its blown way out of porportion. They charge 1200 a day. pay an auditor (contract) 600 plus expenses closer to 950 plus additional days unless its local. Keep an office open with staff, pay benefits to some, maintain their own cert stuff, marketing and so on.....postage, printing, internal development(training), phones......and so on. so what is the profit on 1 lousy company.....doesn't make sense to me. Now if you are saying its many companies and a trend/policy for that lousy registrar...MAYBE, but then thats a different animal that needs to be skinned.
 
R

Roger Eastin

#7
You're right, Barb: registrars don't make a lot of money auditing. They have to have another business (such as consulting) to make some serious money. I don't know, but perhaps a small registrar could make some money, but not the big bucks. We'll have to find another excuse.
 

Brian Hunt

Involved - Posts
#8
Roger Eastin said:

You're right, Barb: registrars don't make a lot of money auditing. They have to have another business (such as consulting) to make some serious money. I don't know, but perhaps a small registrar could make some money, but not the big bucks. We'll have to find another excuse.
I dunno - I think that if a number of companies are registered to ISO9000 by XYZ registrar, then that's a lot of easy income over the year. Especially if you sell other services such as standards and guides.

I recently worked in a large company, now under Chapter 11 protection, that had no recognisable quality management system but was several times threatened with certificate suspension for major non compliances. Although nothing was done by the company, the external auditor was always able to find evidence of progress at the last moment. So the company was let off the hook.

Meanwhile, the poor and non existent business processes were losing the company milllions of dollars.

The audit programme was more of a ritual performance and payment routine.

Brian Hu
 
A

Aaron Lupo

#9
barb butrym said:
As far as $$$$, the cost competition makes registration less than a huge money maker..its blown way out of porportion. They charge 1200 a day. pay an auditor (contract) 600 plus expenses closer to 950 plus additional days unless its local. Keep an office open with staff, pay benefits to some, maintain their own cert stuff, marketing and so on.....postage, printing, internal development(training), phones......and so on. so what is the profit on 1 lousy company.....doesn't make sense to me. Now if you are saying its many companies and a trend/policy for that lousy registrar...MAYBE, but then thats a different animal that needs to be skinned.
Barb, I have to disagree with you. There are plenty of Registrars out there making very good money. Yes they pay subcontract auditors 600 a day plus expenses, but the expenses are not coming out of the registrars paocket the company they are auditing pays those expenses (airtravel, car rental, hotels meals etc..), not only that some registrars charge upto $150 and hour travel time. They also have other costs they throw in for example $1650 for Certificate charge! Give me a break!! If "registrars are not making big$$$$ from the Certification business then how do you explain what we were being charged 20K a year and our new Registrar charge less than 5K a year for the same service?? Granted not all of them are overcharging but some of your bigger ones do for example TUV and BSI just to name 2.
 

Mike S.

Happy to be Alive
Trusted Information Resource
#10
Money has to be a part of it IMO. I have no first-hand knowledge, but it seems to me that in a free-market economy if a business sector (such as ISO certification companies) is not profitable the number of companies providing that service will shrink accordingly. Why be in a business if it is not profitable?

How many times have all of us seen examples where our own companies have skirted the "rules" or "standards" to sell the product for the sake of $ in the door?

How many companies would put-up with customers who are a major problem to deal with unless they represented a loss of $ by dropping them? If it were not for fear of a loss of revenue, why would any auditor pass a non-compliant company?

Am I missing something?
 
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