Are MSA?s (Measurement System Analysis) Process or Gage Based?

R

roder - 2012

#11
Re: Are MSA’s (Measurement System Analysis) Process or Gage Based?

Yep. Rarely matches what the first claimed was "the best gage". OK...it is also a good demo on gage pressure.

It also supports my general rule: The best answer to any question is 'it depends'.:cool:
Yes it really depends....but based on your sample - the best will be the steel rule to measure the marshmallows....
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor

bobdoering

Stop X-bar/R Madness!!
Trusted Information Resource
#12
Re: Are MSA’s (Measurement System Analysis) Process or Gage Based?

Yes it really depends....but based on your sample - the best will be the steel rule to measure the marshmallows....
That is correct, and the absolute worst gage in that example is the micrometer. Micrometers are notorious for bias error. You can get any value you want, just crank them a little more. :cool:
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#13
Re: Are MSA’s (Measurement System Analysis) Process or Gage Based?

That is correct, and the absolute worst gage in that example is the micrometer. Micrometers are notorious for bias error. You can get any value you want, just crank them a little more. :cool:
That would be abuse and invalidate the measurement. ;)
Users must be trained to ulilize the device for constant measuring pressure (the friction sleeve on the thimble or the ratchet-type device at the end of the spindle) rather then depending on "feel" - a very bad habit often practiced by "old-timers."

Stijloor.
 

bobdoering

Stop X-bar/R Madness!!
Trusted Information Resource
#14
Re: Are MSA’s (Measurement System Analysis) Process or Gage Based?

That would be abuse and invalidate the measurement. ;)
Users must be trained to utilize the device for constant measuring pressure (the friction sleeve on the thimble or the ratchet-type device at the end of the spindle) rather then depending on "feel" - a very bad habit often practiced by "old-timers."

Stijloor.
I agree, that works good against steel, but if you use them against anything with "give" you may need to revert to feel.

The one thing people often mess up - especially in the shop if they are in a hurry - is impact. The part will measure much smaller if you run the gage down fast against the part. The smaller ratchet know can really get it going fast, too. Usually do not pick that up in GR&R studies, because they are being watched, they are relaxed and slower than on the line.

I saw a TV movie a long time ago where they were training a dog to be a bird dog. To train the dog not to clamp down on the bird, they would play catch with a ball made of tape and nails. The dog learned to bring it back with a more gingerly grip in the jaws. Training people to understand the issue of feel, I use rubber and plastic blocks. It gives them an idea just how much the torque of a screw can affect their measurement.

To tell you the truth, I have never done this experiment, but I would love to see it done: take 5 plastic cubes. perform a good, blind GR&R on those parts. Then, write on each one a "supposed" correct number and do another GR&R. Do that with calipers and micrometers. I bet the results would be telling.:cool:
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#15
Re: Are MSA’s (Measurement System Analysis) Process or Gage Based?

I agree, that works good against steel, but if you use them against anything with "give" you may need to revert to feel.

The one thing people often mess up - especially in the shop if they are in a hurry - is impact. The part will measure much smaller if you run the gage down fast against the part. The smaller ratchet know can really get it going fast, too. Usually do not pick that up in GR&R studies, because they are being watched, they are relaxed and slower than on the line.

I saw a TV movie a long time ago where they were training a dog to be a bird dog. To train the dog not to clamp down on the bird, they would play catch with a ball made of tape and nails. The dog learned to bring it back with a more gingerly grip in the jaws. Training people to understand the issue of feel, I use rubber and plastic blocks. It gives them an idea just how much the torque of a screw can affect their measurement.

To tell you the truth, I have never done this experiment, but I would love to see it done: take 5 plastic cubes. perform a good, blind GR&R on those parts. Then, write on each one a "supposed" correct number and do another GR&R. Do that with calipers and micrometers. I bet the results would be telling.:cool:
Bob,

Excellent points! :agree1:

I wonder if this is even observed during MSA. I know, I always made this a point of emphasis during metrology training. I showed how misuse (excessive measuring force) significantly impacts the measurement results. We still have a lot of work to do. ;)

Stijloor.
 

bobdoering

Stop X-bar/R Madness!!
Trusted Information Resource
#16
Re: Are MSA’s (Measurement System Analysis) Process or Gage Based?

We still have a lot of work to do. ;)
At a minimum, I try to bust the myth that the micrometer does not walk on water. If anything, that darn gage justifies the concept of GR&R. Just because it reads in tenths does not mean it is statistically correct to tenths.

It is based on the concept of a screw...and that is what it will do to you!:cool:
 

bobdoering

Stop X-bar/R Madness!!
Trusted Information Resource
#18
Re: Are MSA’s (Measurement System Analysis) Process or Gage Based?

That would be abuse and invalidate the measurement. ;)
Some of the worst gage abuse I have seen was operators took a snap indicator and used it to pound steel rule die blade back in place. The frame had a bunch of notches in it from that practice.

Bet that doesn't show up in a GR&R study...:rolleyes:

Lovely. :cool:
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#19
Re: Are MSA’s (Measurement System Analysis) Process or Gage Based?

Some of the worst gage abuse I have seen was operators took a snap indicator and used it to pound steel rule die blade back in place. The frame had a bunch of notches in it from that practice.

Bet that doesn't show up in a GR&R study...:rolleyes:

Lovely. :cool:
I thought that this only happened in a metrologist's worst nightmares...:mg:
Well, I have not seen it all then....:nope:

Stijloor.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#20
Re: Are MSA’s (Measurement System Analysis) Process or Gage Based?

Some of the worst gage abuse I have seen was operators took a snap indicator and used it to pound steel rule die blade back in place. The frame had a bunch of notches in it from that practice.
:cool:
Unbelievable. Everyone knows that you should use a 12" caliper for things like that.
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
Ron Rompen MSA on automated measurement system - Multiple Step Vision System Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 3
Emran.mi Measurement system analysis - Can you help me about implementation MSA for CMM device Manufacturing and Related Processes 2
N Justifications for not performing MSA (Measurement System Analysis) Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 6
S IATF 16949 7.1.5.1.1 Measurement System Analysis (MSA - Die casting) IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 5
B Camera Vision System Measurement System Analysis (MSA) Reliability Analysis - Predictions, Testing and Standards 3
L IATF 16949 7.1.5.1.1 Measurement System Analysis (MSA) - Visual Inspection IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 14
C MSA (Measurement System Analysis) - Instrument Selection Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 4
C MSA (Measurement System Analysis) - Dimension Selection Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 5
S MSA (Measurement System Analysis) - Process Tolerances Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 9
S MSA (measurement system analysis) on Flammability tester? Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 2
B Selecting Parts for an MSA (Measurement System Analysis) Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 7
T MSA on Camera Vision System and other Process Measurement Systems Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 3
G MSA (Measurement System Analysis) and Dimensional Tolerances Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 1
F MSA - Measurement System Analysis Attribute Data Crosstab sheet APQP and PPAP 1
R Destructive Non Reproducibility MSA (Measurement System Analysis) Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 8
M MSA (Measurement System Analysis) on a Photospectrometer Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 9
T MSA (Measurement System Analysis) Competency Test Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 11
B Surface Finish Equipment MSA (Measurement System Analysis) Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 5
A Is MSA useful to prove a Measurement System after Relocation? Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 2
B Very interesting article concerning MSA (Measurement System Analysis) Book, Video, Blog and Web Site Reviews and Recommendations 8
B Wait or not wait? MSA (Measurement System Analysis) Actions Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 2
B MSA (Measurement System Analysis) - Results and Actions Taken Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 12
A MSA (Measurement System Analysis) for Characteristics with One Tolerance Limit Capability, Accuracy and Stability - Processes, Machines, etc. 10
C Attribute Measurement System Analysis (MSA) Template Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 0
D MSA (Measurement System Analysis) on a Bore Measurement - Good or bad result? Six Sigma 9
M Is MSA (Measurement System Analysis) Required for Degradation Testing? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 1
M MSA (Measurement System Analysis) - Do we have control of all states in the chart? Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 5
E MSA (Measurement System Analysis) Study on an Automated Process Quality Tools, Improvement and Analysis 4
optomist1 Is a MSA (Measurement System Analysis) needed on these two tests Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 8
C What is the most appropriate MSA (Measurement System Analysis) Study Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 4
M How to Stack for MSA (Measurement System Analysis) in Minitab? Using Minitab Software 1
V Is MSA (Measurement System Analysis) required for Weighing Scale? Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 4
Rameshwar25 Linearity Problem (MSA - Measurement System Analysis) Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 5
B Gage R&R/MSA for In Process Measurement System in a Turning Machine Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 1
S Weighing Scale MSA (Measurement System Analysis) Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 2
Q MSA Studies on each Equipment, each Measurement System or Family in Control Plan? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 35
I Destructive Testing Measurement System Analysis (MSA) Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 12
S Sample Size for Attribute MSA (Measurement System Analysis) in 4th Edition Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 1
L Measurement System Assessment (MSA) - Water Crackle Test General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 2
S Choosing Parts for Attribute MSA (Measurement System Analysis) in 4th Edition, pg 132 Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 2
A Yearly MSA (Measurement System Analysis) & Capability Study - TS 16949 Requirements Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 2
Z MSA (Measurement System Analysis) for a .0003" tolerance feature Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 1
automoto Attribute MSA (Measurement System Analysis) - .xls Form attached Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 27
S MSA (Measurement System Analysis) for Medical Device Manufacturers Other US Medical Device Regulations 3
automoto Visual Inspection of a Weld - MSA (Measurement System Analysis) Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 4
K MSA (Measurement System Analysis) on Multi-Phase Measurement System Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 12
A Width and location errors in MSA (Measurement System Analysis) Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 10
M Measurement System Analysis (MSA) Procedure template Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 3
Miner Intro to Measurement System Analysis (MSA) of Continuous Data – Part 5b: R&R Imported Legacy Blogs 14
Miner Intro to Measurement System Analysis (MSA) of Continuous Data – Part 5a: R&R Imported Legacy Blogs 5

Similar threads

Top Bottom