Are 'Quality' Standard Certifications slowly losing their Credibility?

[AndyN]

Re: Quality Certification slowly losing the credibility?

There are two reasons why the certifications are loosing value.Firstly,most companies are going for certification with the primary objective of impressing customers.Secondly the certifying auditors are very leanient and there seems to be nobody to check over them.I have noticed they are more interested in enlisting a new customer than performing their professionl duties sincerely.

If things donot improve the certifications will loose all credibility very soon.
V.J.Brahmaiah

I'd like to see the data you have supporting you assertion about 'most companies'! I speak with many organizations every week regarding their intentions for seeking ISO certification My sales region is all of the eastern half of the USA - and a significant proportion of businesses are found in this section of the USA.

There is no 'impressing customers' going on. Certification is a requirement to do business, to even get a chance to bid on contracts. Purchasers are not 'impressed' by certification! If they are, then they deserve the (poor) suppliers they select!

They are usually impressed by good performance and, today, most of the businesses I speak with have had such good performance, they weren't required to be certified even after nearly 20 years that the certification process has been available in this country. It's their customers who require it of them to save on qualifying them (in order they can be compliant with ISO) and to save on unnecessary SQA visits etc.

Furthermore, you may believe CB auditors are lenient, in your country they might be, but not in all markets. Why blame the auditors? Do you blame the QC folks for not catching poor quality product? I hope not!

Shouldn't we lay the issues at the feet of management for not committing to the use of a systematic way to consistently deliver to customer requirements? Oh, and by the way, attracting new customers is a matter of survival.........and certification can help with that.

 

[howste]

Re: Quality Certification slowly losing the credibility?

...Secondly the certifying auditors are very leanient and there seems to be nobody to check over them.I have noticed they are more interested in enlisting a new customer than performing their professionl duties sincerely.

If things donot improve the certifications will loose all credibility very soon.
V.J.Brahmaiah

Ask the companies I audit how lenient I am. I don't think they would agree with your assessment. I have also been witnessed by oversight bodies at least three times in the last two years. I'm sure my experience is not uncommon.

I'm curious how these auditors you mention are "enlisting new customers" during an audit.

 

[MIREGMGR]

Re: Quality Certification slowly losing the credibility?

In the medical device world, I don't think anyone regards having a QMS and certification as an end point...rather, it's evidence of having taken an essential first step toward being a competent supplier. Competent customers rigorously audit their suppliers with that in mind...perhaps unlike other business sectors where the point of certification is to demonstrate that such basic auditing isn't needed. Our customers send in subject-matter experts to audit us. It's SOP.

In medical devices, you have to be at the QMS-and-certification stage to even be allowed to play the game.

 

[JaneB]

Re: Quality Certification slowly losing the credibility?

I'd like to see the data you have supporting you assertion about 'most companies'!

Me too, but I'll bet 'London to a brick' that none will be forthcoming.

I find it difficult to take anyone seriously who thinks making some kind of wild and unsubstantiated sweeping generalisation (perhaps based on some limited personal experience) is sufficient to make it 'true'.

Anyone with even some basic grasp of quality would be expected to present evidence or facts to back up such an assertion.

 

[Jim Wynne]

Re: Quality Certification slowly losing the credibility?

I'd like to see the data you have supporting you assertion about 'most companies'! I speak with many organizations every week regarding their intentions for seeking ISO certification My sales region is all of the eastern half of the USA - and a significant proportion of businesses are found in this section of the USA.

There is no 'impressing customers' going on. Certification is a requirement to do business, to even get a chance to bid on contracts. Purchasers are not 'impressed' by certification! If they are, then they deserve the (poor) suppliers they select!

And the demographics in the eastern half of the US equates to those of India (in this regard) exactly how?

 

[brahmaiah]

Re: Quality Certification slowly losing the credibility?

It seems that the Auditor fraternity is offended by my comments. Well as a person who is serving the industry for well over 40 years, it was with great pain I expressed my views. I will be the happiest man if the certifying auditors restore the credibility of certificates.If my views have no evidence,can any one publish a survey report of performanse of Certifying bodies. Every citizen has a right to this information.

I humbly request my auditor friends to take this debate positively.

V.J.Brahmaiah

 

[brahmaiah]

Re: Quality Certification slowly losing the credibility?

Ask the companies I audit how lenient I am. I don't think they would agree with your assessment. I have also been witnessed by oversight bodies at least three times in the last two years. I'm sure my experience is not uncommon.

I'm curious how these auditors you mention are "enlisting new customers" during an audit.

Well, if you certify a company it is in your list of customers at least for the next three years.

 

[JaneB]

Re: Quality Certification slowly losing the credibility?

I'm not part of any 'auditor fraternity' - I spoke as a consultant, based on some decades of experience with many clients, and many years of observing many, many auditors at work (good bad and ordinary).

My experience differs from yours. Every single one of my clients (literally - every single one of 60+ organisations) have said that they found the experience of 'doing ISO' a valuable one and reported that they were improved from having done so.

I've got no axe to grind here, nor any vested interest. I come in after they've made the decision, I certainly don't try and talk anyone into getting certified, or sell them on the benefits. I help them get there once they've decided they want it. And if some of them said 'not really as useful as I thought' or 'no benefit' or 'so what? thought it would be better than it was', then I'd say so. But none have.

I tend to think that the certifiers and auditors are actually improving, not getting worse. Now, that's in Australia, and I neither can nor claim to speak for other countries. And I also accept that one's viewpoint will of course be coloured by experience.

I'm not offended when people take an opposing point of view to one of mine, by the way. And I'm willing to debate a topic when I find it of interest and if the dewbate is worthwhile. But I do think that such a sweeping generalisation (and you know it's a contentious position that you took) needs to be accompanied by either specific data or more information on what led you to take that position.

Instead, you've done the reverse - taken a position, not provided any data or specifics, and then when people disagreed with you, you ask that other people provide the data to support their opinion. Interesting.

 

[harry]

Re: Quality Certification slowly losing the credibility?

We had some previous discussions on the same and as usual, some end up with their tongues tied because frustration leads to a poor choice of words and then to sweeping statements that are impossible to defend.

Experience will vary according to your countries level of development, maturity of thinking and practice in quality, business practices, culture and a hosts of others. Even within the same region of a country, two different person may have completely different experience because of the segments or clientele they served.

The golden rule is to limit discussions to your area of influence where people will find it easier to accept your views.

 

[brahmaiah]

Re: Quality Certification slowly losing their Credibility?

I fully agree that I have hurt the feelings of some people.
The present system of certification needs reforms.
When the system allows certification to become a profit making business there is a conflict of interests here.One interest is to be an efficient certifying organization.Another interest is to make more profits by increasing the clientale.

When certification is a must for being listed as a supplier,whom do an average supplier choose? a strict certifying organization or a leanient one?

I once again appeal to those who are hurt . My views are against the system and not auditors.
V.J.Brahmaiah