Are these things really required in a document control procedure?

Sidney Vianna

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#11
I think many consultants are more concerned with appeasing CB auditors than they are with helping their clients optimize things.
When the "measure of success" is passing an audit with as few as possible NC's as possible... How many consultants boast in their website a 100% "success rate" of having their clients systems being recommended for certification after the stage 2 audit? We harvest what we sow. Focus on certificates and see a whole business develop around it....When customers start keeping suppliers and their respective CB's accountable to PERFORMANCE expectations, bad consultants will find themselves out of the market.
 
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Jim Wynne

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#12
When the "measure of success" is passing an audit with as few as possible NC's as possible... How many consultants boast in their website a 100% "success rate" of having their clients systems being recommended for certification after the stage 2 audit? We harvest what we sow. Focus on certificates and see a whole business develop around it....When customers start keeping suppliers and their respective CB's accountable to PERFORMANCE expectations, bad consultants will find themselves out of the market.
I agree. Consultants are providing what their customers ask for.
 
#13
I know we are veering off course from the original post, but what I tell folks is that I want their system to work for them. If it does, then registration should be fairly smooth.
 
B

Bogie

#14
Thank you, I appreciate it! Let me rephrasee my question. While the standard does not require those elements (mentioned above), is there a value add they offer that I'm missing? Her comment that registrars will look for certain verbiage in the procedure struck me, as everything I've read (here at the Cove) has been almost unanimous that procedures should be written for the organization, and the registrar/auditors will be familiar enough with the standard that they don't need you to "parrot" it.
Lazy registrars will look for certain verbage - those that are in it to help you improve your system will not.
 

Wes Bucey

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#15
I think many consultants are more concerned with appeasing CB auditors than they are with helping their clients optimize things.
I think many "consultants" are getting jobs with unsuspecting organizations. Such so-called consultants give real consultants sleepless nights with fear their stink may rub off on real consultants. The description of the OP's consultant and her comments and responses has a lot of the same aroma of one "consultant" who advertised "Registration to ISO in 40 days!"

The very idea of having back and forth references between Quality Manual and Procedures is definitely a "mission creep" idea created in the confused brain of a less than knowledgeable hack posing as a consultant.
 

Jim Wynne

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#17
Jim, may I claim to be an exception? :)

Stijloor.
Sure. I said "many" not "most" or "all." As Sidney pointed out earlier, if there are bad consultants, it's mostly due to market demand.

Back in the 90s (I think) there was an article about Deming in the Chicago Tribune. The writer asked him how he would like to be remembered, and he replied, "Well, if I could be remembered as someone who spent his life trying to keep American manufacturing from commiting suicide..."

What Deming was referring to there is part of the same syndrome that causes business owners to look for expedient paths and panaceas, and that's also why there are consultants who are more than willing to fulfill that "need." They are the Jack Kevorkians of the consulting profession, providing assisted suicide.
 

Sidney Vianna

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#18
but what I tell folks is that I want their system to work for them.
Dave, a good QMS has to work well for the organization themselves BUT, AND AS IMPORTANTLY, to their customers as well. The whole point of a QMS is to attain and maintain customer satisfaction, ensuring products are in conformance with applicable requirements, while allowing for a profitable operation.

Too many "QMS's" "work well" for the organization, while customers don't get what they want. Any management system has to deliver to multiple stakeholders. Focusing excessively on one aspect of any system tends to lead to suboptmization of results.
 
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