Are two separate procedures required for Corrective action and preventive actions

G

Gundam_W

#21
Just for discussion purposes...


IMO... A Preventive Action can be a Corrective Action while a Corrective Action cannot be a Preventive Action.

At Least this is how i interpret it.

It might not be the right way to do it but it is the best way.
 
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S

Sam4Quality

#22
Just for discussion purposes...


IMO... A Preventive Action can be a Corrective Action while a Corrective Action cannot be a Preventive Action.

At Least this is how i interpret it.

It might not be the right way to do it but it is the best way.
Gundam_W
Well....what have we got here now?:rolleyes:
Implying that B = A but A NOT= B?? Went a little mathematical though; there may be other non-quality related instances comparing the above equation to be true, but here in this case, I beg to differ.

Both preventive and corrective action are independent of each other. Define.

Corrective Action - Action taken to eliminate the cause of a detected non-conformity (so, that NC does not occur again!)

Preventive Action - Action taken to eliminate the cause of a potential non-conformity (so, there will never be a corrective action in this case!)

I dont see any direct similarity between these two independent actions. On second thoughts though, corrective action may be the outcome of a failed preventive action, but both cannot be the same, never the same.

If there are any examples of B = A or even A = B:evidence:, I would love to know.

Ciao.
SAM :cool:
 
S

Sam4Quality

#23
no it is okay i succed to get it thanks Ajit.
for us in my previous job, we got one procedures which treat the Corrective and ¨Preventive action
even in the current work we got one.
my explication of ISO requirement is that the mandatory is to get a procedure of CA & PA, but not necessary separate one! if it is written two time, it is just because the CA & PA are nitified in two separate chapter and of course in order to avoid any confusion, to have a procedure written is mentioned in the 2 chapter ! :bonk:?

And I see an old friend here! :bigwave:

Maverick SAM
 

bobdoering

Stop X-bar/R Madness!!
Trusted Information Resource
#24
I suggest defining the Preventive Action process and the Corrective action process. Use a turtle diagram if it helps. The inputs of preventive actions should not be things that have already occurred - unless they were similar things that you are extrapolating. The inputs of corrective actions should be things that have occurred, your process should analyze their root causes, etc., and the output should be eliminating the problem. Then determine if the processes are really similar enough to write into one procedure.
 
S

Sam4Quality

#25
Originally Posted by selena15


my explication of ISO requirement is that the mandatory is to get a procedure of CA & PA, but not necessary separate one! if it is written two time, it is just because the CA & PA are nitified in two separate chapter and of course in order to avoid any confusion, to have a procedure written is mentioned in the 2 chapter!
If that's the case then, no where in the entire standards does it say that there should be six separate mandatory procedures as a statement in itself. It has been interpreted based on the number of times the phrase "A procedure shall be maintained......" has been mentioned. So, then we have the liberty to actually make one document for all six mandatory procedures. True?

Then why only CA and PA to be included in one? Part of the Clause 4.2.1 Note1 of the ISO 9001:2008 version says "A single document may address the requirements for one or more procedures. A requirement for a documented procedure may be covered by more than one document."

So now its crystal clear. The standard does give us the liberty to include more than one procedures into a single document AND/OR have many documents for a single procedure. Period.

Originally Posted by bobdoering


Then determine if the processes are really similar enough to write into one procedure.


There is NO similarity between Corrective Actions and Preventive Actions. So there is no requirement for the determination of similarities for procedure purposes. The standard itself has clarified that.


Ciao. :agree1:
______________________
Sincerely, SAM

"To achive the impossible, it is precisely the unthinkable that must be thought!"
 
S

selena15

#26
Agreed Sam
ISO 9001:2008 had clarified it enough.

For just the discussion purposes:)...
Even before, we use to make also in one procédure the document control and the Forms in the same document
Lets say that normaly we can make together the document which go in the say spirit
isn't it ?
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#28

There is NO similarity between Corrective Actions and Preventive Actions.

Of course they're similar. They both deal with prevention of defects, one with recurrence and the other with preventing defects from happening to begin with.


So there is no requirement for the determination of similarities for procedure purposes. The standard itself has clarified that.
I'm not speaking for Bob, but he didn't suggest that there was a requirement to gage similarities before combining process documentation. There is no requirement in the standard for using common sense, but some of us insist on doing it anyway.
 
S

Sam4Quality

#29
Originally Posted by selena15


For just the discussion purposes:)...
Even before, we use to make also in one procédure the document control and the Forms in the same document
Lets say that normaly we can make together the document which go in the say spirit
isn't it ?
I believe so! However, I would like to know others comments, past experiences on this, especially concerning audits. Do auditors really raise a hue and cry if they dont see the six mandatory procedures as independent separate documents? Also, about other procedures?

Ciao. :cool:

__________________
Sincerely, SAM

"To achieve the impossible, it is precisely the unthinkable that must be thought!"
 
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S

Sam4Quality

#30
Originally Posted by Joe Cruse


No similarity?????
Originally Posted by Jim Wynne


Of course they're similar. They both deal with prevention of defects, one with recurrence and the other with preventing defects from happening to begin with.
Well, I think I used the incorrect word here :eek:. I meant to say they (CA & PA) were not the same, in keeping with my earlier post.

And yes, I do agree, they're similar. :agree1:

Ciao.:cool:

______________________
Sincerely, SAM

"To achieve the impossible, it is precisely the unthinkable that must be thought!"
 
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