Are we Training Internal Auditors Correctly

J

John Martinez

#11
Re: Objective Evidence of Internal Auditors having Audit Clause 4.1.

Are you sure that it's the accreditation body which 'requires' the materials to be taught from a 3rd party pov?? Or is it the course provider who chose to utilize that pov, given the IRCA requirements say all types of audit must be covered???
Please read my post again. I DID NOT state that it was the AB's requirement.

The fact is, that management will send people to courses for many reasons and they have not a clue about the 'point of view' the course is taught from, until they get there! (Unless someone recommended it, which is hard to believe, if it was for CB auditors)
Yes, all types of audits are covered; however, the exercises in a Lead Auditor Course is usually from the third party perspective, and yes, at the course provider's design. Most training organizations post prerequisites that are mostly ignored.
 
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Elsmar Forum Sponsor
#12
Re: Objective Evidence of Internal Auditors having Audit Clause 4.1.

Please read my post again. I DID NOT state that it was the AB's requirement.
You wrote....

If it is an IRCA accredited Lead Auditor Course, then it is specifically designed from the third party perspective.

IRCA is an accrediting body...........for course providers, much the same as RABQSA...I wasn't referring to ANAB, UKAS etc....
 
J

John Martinez

#13
Re: Objective Evidence of Internal Auditors having Audit Clause 4.1.

You wrote....

If it is an IRCA accredited Lead Auditor Course, then it is specifically designed from the third party perspective.

IRCA is an accrediting body...........for course providers, much the same as RABQSA...I wasn't referring to ANAB, UKAS etc....
Hi, Andy:
Obviously we are on the same page regarding this. The point I was trying to make is that it is not necessairly the fault of the Lead Auditor course that people come out of it unprepared. It is the fact that some people go into the Lead Auditor course with unrealistic expectations for what ever reason.

That said, the majority of internal auditors that are sent to the courses I teach are there because the boss told them they were “the lead auditor” for internal audits. They have never picked up The Standard, have never done audits, will teach other auditors how to audit when they barely know themselves. How is that the fault of the course?
 
#14
Re: Objective Evidence of Internal Auditors having Audit Clause 4.1.

Hi, Andy:
Obviously we are on the same page regarding this. The point I was trying to make is that it is not necessairly the fault of the Lead Auditor course that people come out of it unprepared. It is the fact that some people go into the Lead Auditor course with unrealistic expectations for what ever reason.

That said, the majority of internal auditors that are sent to the courses I teach are there because the boss told them they were “the lead auditor” for internal audits. They have never picked up The Standard, have never done audits, will teach other auditors how to audit when they barely know themselves. How is that the fault of the course?
Because a) the providers have a responsibility to negotiate with the accreditors/course certifiers when their requirements are inconsistent with the market needs, and b) the course materials have to be able to develop almost any level of understanding coming in the door!

Actually, the courses are the result of poor, undeveloped and out of date accreditation/certification requirements! So, in that respect you're correct, but I still place some responsibility on providers - too many of whom trot out the same old junk and get paid.....

BTW - I've been on the RABQSA course providers committees......
 

Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Admin
#15
Re: Objective Evidence of Internal Auditors having Audit Clause 4.1.

IMO
There is a difference between internal auditing and 3rd party auditing.

The courses are based around the 3rd party requirements.


Theses are the courses most Internal Auditors take-

we then at the cove

get questions again and again about which clauses to write NC's and similar issues for Internal Audits

ergo

The training is faulty

QED

I have seen in house training courses that do not even reference the companies procedure for auditing
 
B

Brunetta

#16
Interesting discussion thus far..

My :2cents:, and thought of the day...
The responsibility still lies with the organization vis a vis the interactions of the QMS.

The linkages of the processes of the QMS are essential to ensuring that the company has what it needs to provide customer satisifaction.

If an organization sent auditors to a Lead Auditor course without really understanding the content, intent and expected results from that procurement of training...then wouldn't this indicate that the interactions between their Preventive or Corrective (as applicable), Purchasing, and Management Review Processes are not effective?

Management set the strategic direction....(i.e. maintain compliance to ISO 9001)

Someone decided that hey...some type of training for the internal audit process is needed - either to correct a nonconformity to keep it from recurring (corrective action), or to prevent an instance of nonconformity from occuring (preventive action) and came up with a plan to procure training.

Purchasing then got involved because...If internal auditing functions as a CHECK component in the PDCA of ISO 9001, then it has an effect on "subsequent product realization or the final product".
Therefore, the procurement of internal audit training from an external provider would need to follow the the requirements of 7.4.

And the corrective or preventive action was reviewed for effectiveness, and closed out.

Management is updated on the status of corrective preventive actions (along with the other required inputs) at the management review to assess the adequacy, suitability and effectiveness of the system. Management resets/continues the strategic direction.

Seeing these linkages between processes and functions helped our organization find an exceptional external provider of an internal audit training program that was performed in house by a trainer who had experience auditing a service organization, taught us to conduct audits by using our processes and records, without boring us with ISO speak, that met IRCA and RABQSA requirements in case our auditors wanted to use the training to qualify for additional certifications, and all at a price that was equivalant to the "Lead Auditor courses" you mentioned.

I may be an optimist...but...Isn't that the intent of implementing and maintaining a compliant Quality Management System?

~Brunetta
 
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J

John Martinez

#17
Re: Objective Evidence of Internal Auditors having Audit Clause 4.1.

IMO
There is a difference between internal auditing and 3rd party auditing.

The courses are based around the 3rd party requirements.


Theses are the courses most Internal Auditors take-

we then at the cove

get questions again and again about which clauses to write NC's and similar issues for Internal Audits

ergo

The training is faulty

QED

I have seen in house training courses that do not even reference the companies procedure for auditing
The course content that I am a trainer for. Internal Auditor = 1st and 2nd party perspective, and Lead Auditor = 3rd Party perspective. Again, if a boss does not read the course content and prerequisets and sends an inexperienced person to the Lead Auditor course, I totally fail to see how the fault lies with the course. :nope:

Looks like we are going to respectfully agree to disagree.

As far as in house so called training, even if there is any training at all, is very lacking at most organizations, so we agree there.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#18
Re: Objective Evidence of Internal Auditors having Audit Clause 4.1.

The course content that I am a trainer for. Internal Auditor = 1st and 2nd party perspective, and Lead Auditor = 3rd Party perspective. Again, if a boss does not read the course content and prerequisets and sends an inexperienced person to the Lead Auditor course, I totally fail to see how the fault lies with the course. :nope:
I don't think anyone is saying that the fault lies with the course, per se. While there certainly should be some responsibility on the part of management to identify the correct training, there is, at the same time, imo, some responsibility on the part of training providers to be specific about matching the course with the expectations. It's a two-way street. If a training provider doesn't tell people that their lead-auditor courses are for potential third-party auditors and not suitable for internal auditors, there's a problem.
 
#19
Totally agree, Jim. What's more in the 15 or so years that I ran the Excel/BSI/UL Lead auditor courses, part of the reason that (many) people came to the class was to become 'exposed' to the audit process from a 3rd party perspective! So, how can anyone reasonably 'limit' the attendees? I have, to the best of my knowledge - had only relatively few 3rd party auditors in any class!

Let's face it, the actual number of candidates for 3rd party LA training is very low - too low to justify anyone actually running a public course as regularly as they are offered!! Most would be run in-house by a CB - which I've done too!

In fact, the LA course is suitable for both 2nd and 3rd party auditors. It's been one of the most popular courses we ran! So who, in all seriousness, is going to limit the attendees? Not a course provider! No, the most appropriate actions would be to lobby the RABQSA/IRCA etc to change the curriculum and make it more attractive for internal auditors to attend the correctly focused classes, possibly through a progression of skills building sessions..........
 

Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Admin
#20
Re: Objective Evidence of Internal Auditors having Audit Clause 4.1.

I don't think anyone is saying that the fault lies with the course, per se. While there certainly should be some responsibility on the part of management to identify the correct training, there is, at the same time, imo, some responsibility on the part of training providers to be specific about matching the course with the expectations. It's a two-way street. If a training provider doesn't tell people that their lead-auditor courses are for potential third-party auditors and not suitable for internal auditors, there's a problem.
Jim,
I agree
Leaving the provider out of it.
My point is that people do not realise the difference and in fact tend to think that bigger is better and thus learn the wrong tools.
This is one of the reasons that IA are in a lot of times ineffective because they are auditing the wrong things. Thus the large number of questions about bureaucratic details of the audits rather than nuts and bolts!
The Internal auditors are more worried about the documentation than the audit, this is the problem.
 
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