Area for Improvement or Non conformance

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Pancho

wikineer
Super Moderator
#12
1) - <snip>There may be no need to train 'new people' it depends on turnover etc. We've not been told this is the case.</snip>
True. This is partly why I prefaced my comment with "from our own similar cases".

2) - Often, we learn from other people who do the same work. If the supervisor gets hit by a bus, this is a low risk. Why write it down for that type of contingency? If there's another person who did the work, ask them!
This is relevant: The Illusion of Memory. Asking someone who does not do the job regularly is not the best way to consistent quality.


3) - I'd suggest that improvement should come from performance (C2C or C2B) indicators first. Writing a process (flow chart) down doesn't always (indeed, rarely) reveals any performance issues. As part of a 'discovery' process, doing a spaghetti diagram, will...but you don't see many of those in 'ISO' documentation!
Sorry, I am not sure what you mean by C2C or C2B. Improvement comes from CAs and PAs, whether they are

  1. documented or undocumented,
  2. formal or informal, or
  3. planned or improvised.
Clearly improvement actions can be undocumented, informal and improvised, but in the aggregate is a lot more effective to have a means to do the first of each type. This is possible only for documented processes.


If everything is effective what is there to improve? All its gotta do is work as planned.
I gave a couple of examples in my earlier post. We went through a similar situation and the examples are real.
 
E

EEJen

#13
If everything is effective what is there to improve? All its gotta do is work as planned.
Preventative Action to reduce the risks that have been mentioned in other posts. Also, if people are absent, I want to reduce the risk of the back up from using the documented procedure.

Thank you for the inputs.
 
E

EEJen

#14
3) - I'd suggest that improvement should come from performance (C2C or C2B) indicators first. Writing a process (flow chart) down doesn't always (indeed, rarely) reveals any performance issues. As part of a 'discovery' process, doing a spaghetti diagram, will...but you don't see many of those in 'ISO' documentation!
Improvement in the area of measurement for receiving - would most likely evening provide for more opportunities of improvement.:agree1:

This is a small company of about 40 employees, and we have come a long way from the hobby shop manufacturing to having business processes in place.

Hi Randy - I even know where Cypress, TX is because I lived in Lakewood Forest Community for several years.
 
#15
Improvement in the area of measurement for receiving - would most likely evening provide for more opportunities of improvement.:agree1:

This is a small company of about 40 employees, and we have come a long way from the hobby shop manufacturing to having business processes in place.

Hi Randy - I even know where Cypress, TX is because I lived in Lakewood Forest Community for several years.
OK, good point, so what can the audit show in terms of measurement that needs improvement? Don't both documented and undocumented procedures work?
 
E

EEJen

#16
There are currently no measurements for the area. There are some down process ones like if a suppliers are getting paid on time. Brainstorming add to receiving area measurement of the delivery time of receipts to Accounting. Make sure these are not sitting on someones desk. I would consider this outside of the scope of the audit.

So when you do you stop auditing and report out the risk and area for improvement and start an improvement or preventative action project?
 
N

Neophyte

#17
"Better off" is a very subjective conclusion for any auditor to draw! It's not for auditors to decide this, but to evaluate if the process works and to report to management. Since this isn't a non-conformity with ISO 9001, the auditor shouldn't go around saying 'get rid of it'...
I don't have an ISO standard in front of me to reference, but I am surprised (skeptical actually) that ISO does not require these to be documented process; especially since #3 is receiving material destined for the production floor and further processing. A documented process to ensure incoming quality is required, as is a process to maintain tracebility. How could these be controlled without at least some measure of control on receiving?
 
#18
A documented process to ensure incoming quality is required, as is a process to maintain tracebility.
Really? What 'requires' them? Certainly not ISO 9001...

While I don't disagree that 'documents...determined to be necessary to ensure the proper planning operation and control" might fit, it might also be shown that a box 'Receiving & Inspection' on a flow chart is all that's required. Like it or not, we - readers here at the Cove - can't say what's necessary and as much as it gives us heartburn, a build up of gas or other discomfort, it's Management's job to decide!
 
N

Neophyte

#19
Really? What 'requires' them? Certainly not ISO 9001...

While I don't disagree that 'documents...determined to be necessary to ensure the proper planning operation and control" might fit, it might also be shown that a box 'Receiving & Inspection' on a flow chart is all that's required. Like it or not, we - readers here at the Cove - can't say what's necessary and as much as it gives us heartburn, a build up of gas or other discomfort, it's Management's job to decide!
ISO/TS 16949:2002 (E)
7.4.3.1 Incoming product quality
The organization shall have a process to assure the quality of purchased product (see 7.4.3) utilizing one or more of the following methods:
-- receipt of , and evaluation of, statistical data by the organization;
-- receiving inspection and /or testing such as samping based
performance.
-- second or third party assessments or audits of supplier sites, when
coupled with reocrds of acceptable delivered product quality;
-- part evaluation by a designated laboratory;
-- another method agreed with the customer.

Same standard 7.5.3 & 7.5.3.1

7.5.3
Where appropriate, the organization shall identify the product by suitable means thoughout product realization. The orgainization shall identify the product status with respect to monitoring and measurement requirements. Where traceability is a requireemnt, the organization shall control and record the unique identification of the product (see 4.2.4).

7.5.3.1
The words "Where appropriate" in 7.5.3 shall not apply.

Those seem to leave it less up to discrestion. Also, and I'm guilty of this myself, I would hazard that the title of many of the reader's of The Cove have the word manager in them. I'll admit we are often the minority voice in "Management", but we can not I think divorce ourselves of the responsiblity of being part of "Management" and therefore to some degree responsible for the decisions made by the group.
 
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