QAguygoqa

Starting to get Involved
#1
Must internal auditors need to be trained on AS9100D to conduct internal audits, even if they are ISO 9001-2015 trained? or is it that the auditor has to be competent.
 

Coury Ferguson

Moderator here to help
Staff member
Super Moderator
#2
Must internal auditors need to be trained on AS9100D to conduct internal audits, even if they are ISO 9001-2015 trained? or is it that the auditor has to be competent.
My simple answer is yes.

How can they perform internal audits to a standard that they haven't been trained on? AS9100 and ISO9001 have some differences.
 

dsanabria

Quite Involved in Discussions
#3
Must internal auditors need to be trained on AS9100D to conduct internal audits, even if they are ISO 9001-2015 trained? or is it that the auditor has to be competent.
The answer is - they should! but it is not a requirement of the standard. There is no need for training and or for competence. However, you get what you invest in it.

A good competent internal auditor / external auditor or consultant would add value to your processes and in essence, that is what you are looking for.

This is the only requirement: select auditors and conduct audits to ensure objectivity and the impartiality of the audit process;
 

AndyN

A problem shared...
Staff member
Super Moderator
#4
Must internal auditors need to be trained on AS9100D to conduct internal audits, even if they are ISO 9001-2015 trained? or is it that the auditor has to be competent.
Nope. If they are adults, they can read AS9100D, I'm guessing. Who needs "training" on something we can read? Seriously, what's the point of spending money on having someone read a set of requirements off a Powerpoint slide presentation?

As the ISO 9001:2015 requirements state, have you identified competencies? Do your internal auditors need to be competent in AS9100D? As in chapter and verse? Or is it better they know YOUR QMS and do an effective job auditing that? My money is on the later.
 

dsanabria

Quite Involved in Discussions
#5
Nope. If they are adults, they can read AS9100D, I'm guessing. Who needs "training" on something we can read? Seriously, what's the point of spending money on having someone read a set of requirements off a Powerpoint slide presentation?

As the ISO 9001:2015 requirements state, have you identified competencies? Do your internal auditors need to be competent in AS9100D? As in chapter and verse? Or is it better they know YOUR QMS and do an effective job auditing that? My money is on the later.

NOTE: the standard does not require to be competent, trained or have internal auditors trained but...

What makes sense of your investment in getting individual to know the requirements, implementation and effectiveness of the process interaction..
 
#6
Nope. If they are adults, they can read AS9100D, I'm guessing. Who needs "training" on something we can read? Seriously, what's the point of spending money on having someone read a set of requirements off a Powerpoint slide presentation?

As the ISO 9001:2015 requirements state, have you identified competencies? Do your internal auditors need to be competent in AS9100D? As in chapter and verse? Or is it better they know YOUR QMS and do an effective job auditing that? My money is on the later.
Yep. All you really need a is a copy of the standard and access to this site.

A few years ago we had a "finding" because our internal auditors where not "trained" to the updated version (I think it was the 2008?). My comment was exactly what you said -- when they prepare for the audit, the pick up the standard and read the applicable parts. He wanted them to document that they read it -- that was "training" according to him. It was laughable.
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#7
NOTE: the standard does not require to be competent,
It doesn't? :mg:
What does this mean?

The organization shall:
a) determine the necessary competence of person(s) doing work under its control that affects the performance and effectiveness of the quality management system;
b) ensure that these persons are competent on the basis of appropriate education, training, or experience;
c) where applicable, take actions to acquire the necessary competence, and evaluate the effectiveness of the actions taken;
d) retain appropriate documented information as evidence of competence.
 

dsanabria

Quite Involved in Discussions
#8
It doesn't? :mg:
What does this mean?
Sidney

Really

Taking information from one clause 7.2 to make it fit to consultant, external and internal auditors....

Really??? WOW



7.2 Competence

The organization shall:

a. determine the necessary competence of person(s) doing work under its control that affects the performance and effectiveness of the quality management system;

b. ensure that these persons are competent on the basis of appropriate education, training, or experience;

c. where applicable, take actions to acquire the necessary competence, and evaluate the effectiveness of the actions taken;

d. retain appropriate documented information as evidence of competence.

NOTE: Consideration should be given for the periodic review of the necessary competence.

NOTE: Applicable actions can include, for example, the provision of training to, the mentoring of, or the re-assignment of currently employed persons; or the hiring or contracting of competent persons.
 

dsanabria

Quite Involved in Discussions
#10
Wow? So, you think the requirements don't apply to internal auditors?

Really?
Is not what I think - it is the interpretation of ANAB, IAQG and CB.

I have written my share of NCR againt this issue just to learn that it is not really applicable to internal audit...

So, if you could change their minds - I am in your corner but until then...
 

Top Bottom