As a consultant, have you ever fired a client? If so, when?

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#31
The essence of your post is spot on, Jane. I don't disagree one bit. However, Surendro's experience is diametrically opposed. He bluntly offers that his clients are not interested in performance improvement, betterment, etc...they only want the ISO 9001 certificate, a.k.a. the ticket to trade.

Emerging economies obviously don't have the same quality culture maturity that Australia, Western Europe, 2/3 of North America and a few other regions around the World have. What makes a strong point for Jim's thread on ISO 9001 implementation and auditing differences around the World. Based on bits and pieces of information provided by India-based covers, I suspect that "quality management" over there is very different than what you have in Australia. So some of our paradigms and advice are very difficult to be applied to their reality, I guess.
I think the statement So some of our paradigms and advice are very difficult to be applied to their reality, I guess is all the more reason for us as Quality professionals "to educate and persuade our employers and clients to the notion "Quality really does pay off both in the short and long run" based on our own conviction of the truth of that statement."

Anything less than full effort is succumbing to that hidebound notion:
"We've always done it this way!"
 
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Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#32
I think the statement So some of our paradigms and advice are very difficult to be applied to their reality, I guess is all the more reason for us as Quality professionals "to educate and persuade our employers and clients to the notion "Quality really does pay off both in the short and long run" based on our own conviction of the truth of that statement."

Anything less than full effort is succumbing to that hidebound notion:
"We've always done it this way!"
This assumes that the companies in question aren't producing "quality" products to begin with. Sometimes the way something has always been done is the best way.
 

BradM

Staff member
Admin
#33
I guess I would call running my own calibration business as a consultant. I think I spent more time consulting than calibrating (I know; that's another thread).:D

The second I went on my own and was the "owner", well.... there was a change. I am not sure if X caused Y, or Y caused X. Instantly, customers started treating me completely different than before. But in all honestly, I am sure my attitude and approach changed also. There were a few times on a few occasions I had to say "no" (asking for questionable services). The customers were OK with that.

Many years ago at my first calibration job, I went to a customer's facility. Well, I received a fair amount of verbal abuse from the customer. I stayed and did the work. I told my boss about it, and got another chewing (it wasn't really a chewing; more like a fatherly admonition; he was like a father to me). He stated "don't ever let a customer treat you that way. Don't say a word, pack your stuff up, and come home. I'll deal with them." That one situation has strongly formed my approach.

Owning my own business has always heightened my sense of customer service. However, it has also heightened my sensitivity to not having to put up with jerks and undue stress to the point of personally affecting you.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#35
How often does this happen? Please state figures.
63.2% of the time. :cool:

Of course there's no way to "state figures" in such a case, and I will readily agree that there are relatively few processes that can't benefit from some sort of improvement effort. My point was that there are times when efficacious processes are tampered with by well-meaning individuals who believe that "the way we've always done it" is necessarily wrong. Knowing when to leave well enough alone is just as important as knowing how to fix things. You also have to keep in mind that whatever the current state of "quality" happens to be is often no more than what leadership says it is. Sometimes even the most skillful horse whisperer can lead the equines to the H2O and not be able to get them to drink.
 
S

somerqc

#36
Jim,

Although I understand your point, I respectfully disagree.

Why? If leaving "well enough alone" is acceptable, why do the best competitors (individuals and companies) constantly try to change and improve?

Tiger Woods has completely changed his golf swing...yes, there was a time where he seemed human, but, now he is almost untouchable!

Corporations change processes, structure, etc. in efforts to improve the overall business.

On a personal note, I was very competitive in 10 pin bowling (averaging just over 200 for many years in a row). There is theoretically nothing wrong with that (I could have left "well enough alone"). I proceeded to complete deconstruct my game and rebuild it over one summer. I averaged over 210 for 4 of the next 5 years (the 1st year after I averaged 208). I have since quit because I found it too easy (yes, I prefer being challenged..hence in quality field and I started golfing).

All of these are examples of when things are good, but change results in something better. It sometimes results in a temporary state of lower results; however, many times results in much improved long term results. I use the motto "good enough never is; because somebody out there is better than you".

I guess the philosophy used depends on the goals that are set and/or how competitive you are (yes, I can be very competitive)

John
 
#37
How often does this happen? Please state figures.
I too, cannot state figures. However, I have had personal experience on more than one occasion where a company is making a good quality product. In several of these cases, they were reluctant to document the system because they were worried that documenting the system would remove their flexibility and actually force them into making bad product. In one occasion, it took quite a bit of salesmanship to get them to realize that they could still maintain the flexibility to make changes when changes were necessary.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#38
Jim,

Although I understand your point, I respectfully disagree.

Why? If leaving "well enough alone" is acceptable, why do the best competitors (individuals and companies) constantly try to change and improve?
The best competitors, in my experience, know how to pick their battles. Companies that are amenable to change also tend to know what and when to change things, and when not to tamper with a good thing. The idea that everything is always subject to improvement is wasteful. This doesn't mean that monitoring is a bad thing, or that we should close our eyes to potential opportunities. Knowing when to use the tools is an important part of having tools.

Tiger Woods has completely changed his golf swing...yes, there was a time where he seemed human, but, now he is almost untouchable!
I will never be a scratch golfer, nor do I have the capability to be one. I learned this a long time ago. I can improve my own game only to the extent that my own personal physiology will permit it, given equal motivational factors.

Corporations change processes, structure, etc. in efforts to improve the overall business.
Absolutely. But they don't change everything just for the sake of change. The best companies use their assets wisely, and know when to leave things alone and concentrate on deficiencies that need improvement the most.

On a personal note, I was very competitive in 10 pin bowling (averaging just over 200 for many years in a row). There is theoretically nothing wrong with that (I could have left "well enough alone"). I proceeded to complete deconstruct my game and rebuild it over one summer. I averaged over 210 for 4 of the next 5 years (the 1st year after I averaged 208). I have since quit because I found it too easy (yes, I prefer being challenged..hence in quality field and I started golfing).
It's interesting that you should mention bowling, because I spent a great deal of time at it when I was in my twenties, and despite many hours of practice and instruction (I was very serious about it) an average in the mid-190s was the best I could do. Not bad, but it wasn't as good as I wanted to be. If you found an average of 210 to be "too easy," why didn't you set a higher goal? My guess is that you were about as good as you were going to get, and further improvement efforts would have been fruitless.
 

BradM

Staff member
Admin
#39
The essence of your post is spot on, Jane. I don't disagree one bit. However, Surendro's experience is diametrically opposed. He bluntly offers that his clients are not interested in performance improvement, betterment, etc...they only want the ISO 9001 certificate, a.k.a. the ticket to trade.

Emerging economies obviously don't have the same quality culture maturity that Australia, Western Europe, 2/3 of North America and a few other regions around the World have. What makes a strong point for Jim's thread on ISO 9001 implementation and auditing differences around the World. Based on bits and pieces of information provided by India-based covers, I suspect that "quality management" over there is very different than what you have in Australia. So some of our paradigms and advice are very difficult to be applied to their reality, I guess.
I agree with you Sidney. The paradigms and advice are different. Would you agree that the propensity to fire a client is also different from country to country?
 
Last edited:
S

somerqc

#40
Jim,

Points taken.

However, all businesses should be determining where improvements are worthwhile. Even when I deconstructed my bowling game, I never changed how I made single pin spares..why? I was already known as the best around for single pin spares. My improvement was based on getting more power to the ball as well as being able to play on many different conditions.

Why did I quit? Because I knew any improvement was completely mentally based. In this area (Toronto) there is very little to no competition to keep my mental game at the level I needed/wanted it to be to gain any satisfaction. When I was at what I referred to as "tournament level" I would be averaging 215-220 on a regular basis (usually from Jan to April). Oh ya, then I got married and have a small child ;)

Now we return to are regularly scheduled thread. :)
 
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