As a consultant, have you ever fired a client? If so, when?

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#41
Would you agree that the propensity to fire a client is also different from country to country?
Yes. Good consultants fire clients when their livelihood is not in jeopardy, for the most part. Income plays a long way in being patient and willing to eat some crows and kiss some frogs, in certain assignments.

While passion for quality is commendable, any dogmatic, extremist approach to educate the non-enlightened is counterproductive. Sometimes you must lose some battles to win the war. If I were Surendro, I would make it clear in my website and any marketing collateral that:
IF YOU JUST WANT THE CERTIFICATE, DON'T BOTHER CALLING ME.
It would help screening the misguided clients.
 
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S

somerqc

#42
Back on topic:eek:

In the recent past I have been contemplating whether to venture into the consulting world. My problem is that I am sick of "getting the certificate". It is not satisfying the get the paperwork (although I am making reasonable money doing this) anymore. Unfortunately, I see that it is no different in the consulting world.

Although, under my current situation, I could have some level of pickiness. I agree that I would be willing to "kiss some frogs" to help a company mature; however, I will not deal with people that would ask me to compromise my ethics. I will help you get the certificate; just don't ask me to lie or compromise my ethics to help you do it.

:2cents:
 
#43
63.2% of the time. :cool:
83% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
But they don't change everything just for the sake of change. The best companies use their assets wisely, and know when to leave things alone and concentrate on deficiencies that need improvement the most.
When the process runs at 2 or 3 digit PPM defects, the customer is happy and it's always been that way, you tread on dangerous ground to change (i.e. try to "improve") it. Why do it when you can walk across the aisle to the 95% yield, late delivery, customer screaming process and come out a hero.
Although, under my current situation, I could have some level of pickiness. I agree that I would be willing to "kiss some frogs" to help a company mature; however, I will not deal with people that would ask me to compromise my ethics. I will help you get the certificate; just don't ask me to lie or compromise my ethics to help you do it.
I'm not a consultant but I "fired" my previous employer. I spent about 6 months trying to educate my new boss (and I wasn't alone). Despite a lack of experience, training, or education, he knew how to be a better Quality Manager, Quality Engineer and Electrical/Manufacturing Engineer than me. When I fired him he told me that we needed to have an exit interview. I told him that we had been having one for the past month and didn't need another. He threatened that I would have the interview with the president. I said I'd really like that. He never scheduled it.

I didn't start out in quality here but I was very up front with my current employer that I would not violate my personal morals nor my professional ethics if I took on the Quality Manager role. Fudging quality metrics, lying about defects (amount or cause) or even varnishing the truth about root cause with a customer just isn't worth your name and reputation.
 
J

JaneB

#45
Wow, what a great range of discussion. Interesting responses all.

In the recent past I have been contemplating whether to venture into the consulting world. My problem is that I am sick of "getting the certificate". It is not satisfying the get the paperwork (although I am making reasonable money doing this) anymore. Unfortunately, I see that it is no different in the consulting world.
Well, yes and no. In my opinion, it IS very different. I just love what I do, virtually all day every day. I think also I'm temperamentally suited to project work where things change frequently and there are many new situations and new people to work with, and less well suited to ongoing management.

But yes, there are of course parts of my business I enjoy less (writing audit reports for example). And yes, I come across the occasional client/potential client who is difficult.

But there's a world of difference in being my own boss. I choose my business values. I get to put my own beliefs about quality management into action - and of course have to demonstrate them & live up to them. And put my self 'on the line' business wise. But I can also choose how I respond to a 'difficult client' - eg, whether I take them on or not. If so, how I work with them.

And yes, of course one has to be willing to kiss some frogs - I did a lot of that while building my business, because the dog sure likes to eat and snooze on a comfortable bed and so do I.

But no, I don't deal with people who want me to compromise my ethics. I make that plain on my website too. Unethical conduct? No. And fortunately, I've only once come across a potential client where I had severe qualms about their ethics - told them they would be better with another firm. Being firmly on your side as a client to help you get that certificate? Absolutely.
 
J

JaneB

#46
The best competitors, in my experience, know how to pick their battles. Companies that are amenable to change also tend to know what and when to change things, and when not to tamper with a good thing... they don't change everything just for the sake of change. The best companies use their assets wisely, and know when to leave things alone and concentrate on deficiencies that need improvement the most.
Could not agree with you more, Jim. Well said. It's too simplistic to keep repeating the 'everything is subject to change' mantra, without picking the best, most productive places to change. "More bang for the buck", as it were.

When the process runs at 2 or 3 digit PPM defects, the customer is happy and it's always been that way, you tread on dangerous ground to change (i.e. try to "improve") it. Why do it when you can walk across the aisle to the 95% yield, late delivery, customer screaming process and come out a hero.
Yes, indeed.

I'm not a consultant but I "fired" my previous employer. I spent about 6 months trying to educate my new boss (and I wasn't alone). Despite a lack of experience, training, or education, he knew how to be a better Quality Manager, Quality Engineer and Electrical/Manufacturing Engineer than me. When I fired him he told me that we needed to have an exit interview. I told him that we had been having one for the past month and didn't need another. He threatened that I would have the interview with the president. I said I'd really like that. He never scheduled it.
Love it! Right decision you made, too.

While passion for quality is commendable, any dogmatic, extremist approach to educate the non-enlightened is counterproductive. Sometimes you must lose some battles to win the war.
True. But then I think any dogmatic, extremist approach to (just about?) anything you care to name is counterproductive. I don't think/didn't interpret what Wes said as advocating that at all, & it wouldn't be consistent with other things he writes.

If I were Surendro, I would make it clear in my website and any marketing collateral that: IF YOU JUST WANT THE CERTIFICATE, DON'T BOTHER CALLING ME. It would help screening the misguided clients.
You're right in that websites & marketing material can be equally as useful in screening out the clients we don't want as screening in & attracting those we do. I am not sure I'd word it quite like that - but then, I'm not the consultant there! I definitely use mine that way, and find it very useful.

But I'd also like to hear back from Surendro, to learn a bit more about his situation, including whether we can offer any help, because I'm not quite clear about the actual issue there. I think I'm perhaps interpreting what was said in one way, others are seeing it differently, and we don't really have a lot to go on other than a few rather bare bones.
 
F

fireonce

#47
Re: As a consultant, do you ever fire a client? If so, when?

Never fired a client.but I admired your work
 
S

surendro - 2009

#48
Thanks for your post. Actually, what happened in most of my cases is that the top management always wanted to see the improvement. In one case, a Director was always after the factory to improve their working. The President in charge of the factory was preparing a monthly report running into about 20 pages just to keep the Directory busy.

However, the whole report was silent on one factor -the conversion cost. By introducing a simple formula, it was made apparent that the company is losing hundred of thousands of rupees in invisible waste -waste that is not accounted for. Once this was done, the MD immediately asked to follow the new format which was only a half page report. However, the President was not amused.

In another case, the Director in charge of production was proud to tell that he is managing with a product loss of only 1 to 2%, and there is no further scope for improvement. In fact he was not even trying to listen anything. Therefore, when the machine wise production and quality checking ireeports were introduced, it was found that the entire production of a particular machine in an entire shift was defective. This set the MD into thinking, and he took personal interest to attend the weekly productivity meeting.

In fact it is not my idea that they should follow everything that a consultant tells them. But they should also try to see the point and only accept something that is finally going to help them.

After all they are using the resources which have a vital impact on the lives of all, and any wastage is a criminal negligence and as consultants we must try to show them the actual areas of wastage and how to stop it.

However, it is the middle management who are with the company for quite a long period do not want any such suggestions, because they consider their tenure insecure.

Surendro
 
J

JaneB

#49
Ah, interesting. Thanks for the extra information, Surendro. From what you say, it sounds as though the top management were on board, but the middle management not (and since that's where the problem lay, there's presumably an understandable resistance). And yes, I strongly agree that there isn't much point in consulting to someone unless they're willing to try. But we also need at least some clients (if you are as fond of helping others improve, not to mention eating as I am)

From a consulting point of view, it's perhaps then important to look at how one sets up the terms of the engagement in the first place, including who you report to, and what the parameters are.

Slightly off topic, but as an example, I once worked with another consultant on a company project (at their request). He was a specialist in a different field, but related to my engagement. Problem was, they wanted him to be 'lead consultant' and he did all the client liaison and reporting, so I had no avenue to communicate with the client. It was a mistake from my point of view, and I belatedly discovered that a/ he had no idea of how to manage a project and b/ was taking credit for things I created and c/ there was no formal reporting or tracking of progress. Among other problems, the client decided I wasn't doing much (well no, he'd taken a lot of it on and presented it as 'his'). Not a mistake I plan to make again, but I learned that I should insist in future on clearer reporting and tracking arrangements - or be prepared to walk away.

It comes back to the interesting questions of how do you work through others to get things done. Perhaps the question 'how do you work with middle management when they need to but don't want to change?' would make a good new thread?
 

michellemmm

Quest For Quality
#50
It comes back to the interesting questions of how do you work through others to get things done. Perhaps the question 'how do you work with middle management when they need to but don't want to change?' would make a good new thread?

I am in the exact position you described. I have tried every trick.... and still :frust::frust::frust:. The middle management is not interested in learning anything new or doing anything extra.

I would love some feedback and help.
 
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