As a consultant, have you ever fired a client? If so, when?

J

JaneB

#51
I am in the exact position you described. I have tried every trick.... and still :frust::frust::frust:. The middle management is not interested in learning anything new or doing anything extra.

I would love some feedback and help.

My advice would be to start a new thread with the question. It's a different topic & needs a separate one.
There may be other people who could /would contribute but aren't involved or interested in this thread. Nor would anyone searching for that information find it in a thread by this title. I'm not trying to be unhelpful - far from it - but I think it's better in another thread.
 
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S

surendro - 2009

#52
Thanks Jane,

Thank you for your wonderful views. The whole problem lies in my attitude. I have first hand experience about how the textile industry, to which I originally belonged works. I also have first hand knowledge about a number of consultant friends are encouraging the top management to circumvent the requirements of the standards like ISO 9001:2000 QMS, ISO 14001:2004, SA 8000 etc. In fact they openly suggest to the top management and help them in maintaining two sets of documentation -one for the external auditor and one for actual operations.

Besides them, most of the people who ever happened to work as Management Representative in a company have started their consultancy and they neither have the right background, not the commitment.

To accentuate this problem, the certification agencies are also not following a strict code of practice and do not go deep into the documented procedures and the actual working of the company.

To highlight this, I would like to quote what one participant had asked me during one of my training programs - how many companies have been decertified or refused certification because they are not following the regulatory requirements? I had to admit that to my knowledge not a single company had been refused certification or decertified for not following regulatory requirements, except in one case where the certifying agency had to suspend the certificate of a company because some NGO wrote to SAI with actual proof of how the company circumvents the regulatory requirements and why it should not have got the SA 8000 certificate in the first place.

I refuse to accept or be a part of such unethical practices. Therefore, I always try to give due value for what I am charging to my clients; and when I find some resistence I give more time even at my expense and try to convince the concerned persons. However, if even despite this I fail, I get frustrated. And yes, I have never walked out of an assignment on these grounds, though I give my suggestions about how the company can improve its results by taking care of certain activities and leave the matter at that.

Now, before accepting an assignment, I first ask how serious the client is in implementing the requirements of the standard, the way the standard requires. If I find the client not genuinely interested in that I thank him for the time and walk out instead of compromising on my belief.

But, Jane you are right, we can't always be altruistic, and have to be realistic and do not have to get frustrated because our views are not accepted. We must try to devise a method to involve the reluctant middle management level to achieve our aim, which is actually going to help them. May be we have to put our views as actual suggestions coming from the middle management. This may remove the insecurity they may be feeling and also project them in a good light and we may get their cooperation.

Thanks once again Jane for giving me this opportunity to reflect on my attitude and find the solution.

And Yes, I also agree with Marc and you, we may start a new thread on how to involve the reluctant middle management in our plan of action.

Thanks everybody who contributed to the thread. It was very enlightening.

Surendro
 
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J

JaneB

#53
Surendro,

Thank you for your contribution to the discussion - you've certainly given me some things to ponder. Just yesterday I met an the MD of a firm located in an emerging economy country at a local Quality convention - she had some very interesting things to say about some of the registration/certification practices there, and not good ones alas..

The whole problem lies in my attitude.
Well, if things are as you describe them, then I don't think that your attitude is 'the problem'!

I have first hand experience about how the textile industry, to which I originally belonged works. I also have first hand knowledge about a number of consultant friends are encouraging the top management to circumvent the requirements of the standards like ISO 9001:2000 QMS, ISO 14001:2004, SA 8000 etc. In fact they openly suggest to the top management and help them in maintaining two sets of documentation -one for the external auditor and one for actual operations.
This is dreadful, and makes me sad to hear. Thing is - it may work temporarily, but it won't be sustainable and sooner or later it will break down. And one of the big questions will be: how much will it cost them? (Lost customers, damages, reputation, etc etc).

I refuse to accept or be a part of such unethical practices.
I agree utterly with you. Appalling.

Thanks for taking the time to explain more - I didn't get a true impression from your first email.

Now, before accepting an assignment, I first ask how serious the client is in implementing the requirements of the standard, the way the standard requires. If I find the client not genuinely interested in that I thank him for the time and walk out instead of compromising on my belief.
Very wise. (We learn from our mistakes, don't we?). I used to think that the mere fact that a customer had decided to get certified meant that they were committed. Overly naive of me. And I do the same as you - I have learned to be choosier about clients. But it became easier to do that of course once I'd built the business to a level where I could take the risk of saying no. In the early days, I did not dare to, because I worried too much about not eating - 'becoming a bag lady'.

We must try to devise a method to involve the reluctant middle management level to achieve our aim, which is actually going to help them.
I think this is one of THE most fruitful areas for quality - and one of the areas where the 'quality movement' has most often failed. If middle management perceives quality as 'either/or' (as in, I can either make my targets/reach my objectives OR I can do quality) then it has failed. And I believe it has often failed.

Thanks once again Jane for giving me this opportunity to reflect on my attitude and find the solution.
Thank you, Surendro for the same reason. You, among others, have given me opportunities to reflect on varying points of view and hear of experiences that are sometimes similar and at times very different, and above all, more thinking material. And I do like being stimulated to think. [/QUOTE]
 
X

xplr8n

#54
Newbie poster here...
First off...I appreciate this forum and all who contribute their perspectives, hard found, created, tested and prevailing wisdom...

YES!

I began my journey in Quality as an OA/SE...process guy. Quality Systems was a natural evolution. I have fired MANY clients for many of the reasons stated in this thread (dishonesty, being set up as fall-guy, "yes, I understand but..." "Just do it, I'm paying you" amongst others)

For me however "Firing" is a strategy:

Insufficient progress
Price bickering
Regulatory
Unmanagability

In most cases (SPC says 87%) the client will ask...and in ~15% demand that I return if they play nice...I always revise the contract/LOA to reflect the new working arrangement.

The key point is the "how" you fire them. I use the full and honest disclosure method leading with the phrase: "I am afraid I am not living up to my personal charter, so I need to discuss some issues with you" then list the offending issues from the ROI perspective...then I ask what type of transition process they would like (always tie final payments to deliverables)...and if they would like me to refer a substitute...

A significant amount of log jams are reduced if not eliminated by the committment to follow what is right vs. what is expected of most consultants (perpetual billing & dependancy).

My two cents...
 
J

JaneB

#55
Some really thoughtful points, xplr8n. You picked the key points very well, and the underlying reasons
:thanx:

I realised that the sticking point for me is when it comes to a values conflict - between my wanting to do the right thing by the client and not 'let them down', but needing to meet my own values as you spotted, which is compromised when there is little/no evidence of the expected behaviour/ actions/ criteria/values/whatever from the client. (eg, all talk, no action)

I've gradually become more comfortable with withdrawing from an untenable engagement, and agree with what you say here:

The key point is the "how" you fire them. I use the full and honest disclosure method leading with the phrase: "I am afraid I am not living up to my personal charter, so I need to discuss some issues with you" then list the offending issues from the ROI perspective...then I ask what type of transition process they would like (always tie final payments to deliverables)...and if they would like me to refer a substitute...
:applause:

And also:

A significant amount of log jams are reduced if not eliminated by the committment to follow what is right vs. what is expected of most consultants (perpetual billing & dependancy).
Absolutely. :yes:

If more of us acted like this, perhaps 'consultant' would be less of a pejorative term.

I look forward to your participation in the Cove
 
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