AS9100 Clause 7.4.1 Purchasing Process and Approved Supplier List Records

G

gilstrr

#11
Could I get some opinions and/or arguements for the following?
We have an AS9100B QMS and I have updated our documents to AS9100C. Last week we had an internal audit (by an outside source) and one of their comments about our ASL was that I do not have listed the Registrar, the consulting firm that performed our internal audit nor the temporary service we use to find some of our employees. I have all other suppliers listed with all required information per the Rev. C Standard.

My arguement was that I have all suppliers listed that provide goods or services that affect the quality of our products that we sell to our customers. How does our Registrar provide a service that affects the quality of our products? If he comes in and writes me a finding on my Quality System and when I implement the corrective action to improve that area he has done nothing to improve my Quality System...I have. He simply observed and reported the finding. In addition, how would I monitor the metrics for any of these "suppliers?" If I'm getting employees from the temp service that show up late for work does that mean the temp service has poor delivery therefore their on-time delivery metrics suffers? My thoughts are that this is carrying it too far and does not belong on the ASL.

Thougths??
 
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G

gilstrr

#12
What have you defined in section 4.2.4 Records Control as your retention period? Simply define it and do it. The only other requirement would be anything flowed down from another source. In other words, does one of your customers require that you maintain these records for a minimum period of time?
 

dsanabria

Quite Involved in Discussions
#13
Could I get some opinions and/or arguements for the following?
We have an AS9100B QMS and I have updated our documents to AS9100C. Last week we had an internal audit (by an outside source) and one of their comments about our ASL was that I do not have listed the Registrar, the consulting firm that performed our internal audit nor the temporary service we use to find some of our employees. I have all other suppliers listed with all required information per the Rev. C Standard.

My arguement was that I have all suppliers listed that provide goods or services that affect the quality of our products that we sell to our customers. How does our Registrar provide a service that affects the quality of our products? If he comes in and writes me a finding on my Quality System and when I implement the corrective action to improve that area he has done nothing to improve my Quality System...I have. He simply observed and reported the finding. In addition, how would I monitor the metrics for any of these "suppliers?" If I'm getting employees from the temp service that show up late for work does that mean the temp service has poor delivery therefore their on-time delivery metrics suffers? My thoughts are that this is carrying it too far and does not belong on the ASL.

Thougths??
First, find out where he got this requirement for an approved supplier list - (ASL).

then read the requirement
;
AS9100 7.4.1
"The organization shall evaluate and select suppliers based on their ability to supply product in accordance with the organization's requirements..."

and - Unless those companies (mentioned above) provide services to your product then, they don't should not be part of the ASL.

finally... its time to start looking for another outside source...;)
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#14
From what you described, you are OUTSOURCING the internal auditing process, which happens to be a QMS-related process. To that effect, 4.1 of the AS9100 standard requires you to control the outsourced internal auditing process. How do you determine if the people/vendor are competent to perform an effective QMS internal audit of your organization? How do they schedule, plan, perform and report audit results? What are their qualifications? Etc.

First, find out where he got this requirement for an approved supplier list - (ASL).
Probably from the requirement that reads
The organization shall
a) maintain a register of its suppliers that includes approval status (e.g., approved, conditional, disapproved) and the scope of the approval (e.g., product type, process family),
 
G

gilstrr

#15
Yes, but if you go on to read is says, "Where an organization chooses to outsource any process that affects product conformity to requirements, the organization shall ensure control over such processes." My point of contention is that an audit in itself does not "affect product conformity to requirements."
Thank you very much for your comments!
 
J

Jason PCSwitches

#16
Yes, but if you go on to read is says, "Where an organization chooses to outsource any process that affects product conformity to requirements, the organization shall ensure control over such processes." My point of contention is that an audit in itself does not "affect product conformity to requirements."
Thank you very much for your comments!

The auditing of your processes does have a relationship to product conformity!!!!!!!
 

dsanabria

Quite Involved in Discussions
#17
Could I get some opinions and/or arguements for the following?
We have an AS9100B QMS and I have updated our documents to AS9100C. Last week we had an internal audit (by an outside source) and one of their comments about our ASL was that I do not have listed the Registrar, the consulting firm that performed our internal audit nor the temporary service we use to find some of our employees. I have all other suppliers listed with all required information per the Rev. C Standard.

My arguement was that I have all suppliers listed that provide goods or services that affect the quality of our products that we sell to our customers. How does our Registrar provide a service that affects the quality of our products? If he comes in and writes me a finding on my Quality System and when I implement the corrective action to improve that area he has done nothing to improve my Quality System...I have. He simply observed and reported the finding. In addition, how would I monitor the metrics for any of these "suppliers?" If I'm getting employees from the temp service that show up late for work does that mean the temp service has poor delivery therefore their on-time delivery metrics suffers? My thoughts are that this is carrying it too far and does not belong on the ASL.

Thougths??
Just for clarification.

Yes, the outside auditor can be included in the ASL (not sure how you would review it's performance... would like to hear what other cove member have done).

The auditor ask you to place the "temp agency" on the ASL

and your registrar?

Did they also asked you to place the telephone, water and electricity companies in the ASL?
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#18
My point of contention is that an audit in itself does not "affect product conformity to requirements."
You have a valid point. However, look at Note 2 under 4.1, which reads
NOTE 2: An “outsourced process” is a process that the organization needs for its quality management system and which the organization chooses to have performed by an external party.
So, once again, we have a situation which shows that the authors of ISO 9001 could have done a better job, in terms of clarifying the requirements.
 
G

gilstrr

#19
Sidney, that is the best argument yet that I have seen for adding auditors to the ASL. During previous reads of the standard I did not look at that note in the same light, but a case could certainly be made for it on second look. I have outsourced my internal audit and we "outsource" some of our employee finding by using a temp service, but would you consider our Registrar as an outsourced process? Isn't that just part of the requirement of obtaining certification? There is no option of performing that process internally.
 

kgott

Quite Involved in Discussions
#20
Re: 7.4.1 Purchasing Process

What’s wrong with saying that the mere fact that a supplier is on the list means they are approved? Our finance department has this list and they send out by email seeking the suppliers particulars required to contact and pay them.

We don’t evaluate all suppliers, we have 4 categories, those we don’t evaluate anyway because they are large national and or international organisations, Joe Blow and his offsider with this truck, those who are off-the-shelf suppliers and those few we do an assessment on when we use them on projects and their evaluation is part of the project closure report

Easy as, ..... or have I missed something?
 
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