AS9100 Clause 7.4.2.d Revision Letter Flow Down to Suppliers

Z

z28tt

#1
Recently one of our special process suppliers stopped processing our parts unless we specify a spec revision letter on the PO.

Our major aerospace customers (P&W, UTAS) flow to us "latest revision at time of PO applies" to specifications used. We flow this down to our NADCAP suppliers (Heat Treat, NDT, Coatings, Passivation).

I can't find any reference within AS9100 that requires a revision letter, and from what I've read, NADCAP is AS9100 word-for-word. The revision status that we (and our customers) flow down is "latest at the time of PO" with a clause # on our PO terms and conditions.
7.4.2. Purchasing Information
Purchasing information shall describe the product to be purchased, including, where appropriate:
d.
the identification and revIsion status of specifications, drawings, process requirements,
inspection/verification instructions and other relevant technical data,
It would be nice to have someone verify and add the rev letter to each PO, but that's a lot of extra work with the volume of outgoing jobs, as well as a greater risk of making a mistake than a supplier missing the latest rev. Our suppliers are the specialists in their processes, so we've delegated it to them. This has never been an issue on our audits either.

Thoughts?
 
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Sidney Vianna

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Staff member
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#2
Recently one of our special process suppliers stopped processing our parts unless we specify a spec revision letter on the PO.

Our major aerospace customers (P&W, UTAS) flow to us "latest revision at time of PO applies" to specifications used. We flow this down to our NADCAP suppliers (Heat Treat, NDT, Coatings, Passivation).

I can't find any reference within AS9100 that requires a revision letter, and from what I've read, NADCAP is AS9100 word-for-word. The revision status that we (and our customers) flow down is "latest at the time of PO" with a clause # on our PO terms and conditions.


It would be nice to have someone verify and add the rev letter to each PO, but that's a lot of extra work with the volume of outgoing jobs, as well as a greater risk of making a mistake than a supplier missing the latest rev. Our suppliers are the specialists in their processes, so we've delegated it to them. This has never been an issue on our audits either.

Thoughts?
The standard is VERY clear on this: revision status is mandatory. To simply state the latest revision at the time of the PO represents a failure to comply with that requirement, in my assessment. I suspect that the supplier is taking this hard line because they probably got burnt at least once.

It is the responsibility of the customer to define the appropriate revision level of a process specification for an outsourced process. With the information provided, I would side with your supplier.
 
E

Eotfofyl

#3
Following a change in upper management, the company I work for has recently changed the purchase order procedure from requiring that a revision letter follow every drawing and specification call out to simply indicate "Latest revision". According to them it is "What all the primes do". I fear this will get us into trouble come audit season.

I would like to see more opinions from the cove if possible on this matter as I have done quite a bit of research and come up with nothing but the clause from as9100 referenced above. I am told that the new SOP verbiage complies with the requirement.
 

Sidney Vianna

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Admin
#4
I am told that the new SOP verbiage complies with the requirement.
By whom? As I already stated, in my assessment, such practice clearly violates the AS9100 requirement I copied in my previous post. If you read the IAQG AS9100C Auditor Guidance document for that paragraph, it reads
What to look for
Examples of objective evidence:

? issue control of documents specified on purchase order
If your customer (OEM?) practices that, assuming that they are also AS9100 certified (not all are :mg:), you can let their CB know of the discrepancy via a OASIS feedback loop.

According to AS9104/1, CB's will have to audit the purchasing process every year, adequacy of information in PO's will be scrutinized continually and, I am afraid your process will be found nonconforming.
 
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Big Jim

Trusted Information Resource
#5
Following a change in upper management, the company I work for has recently changed the purchase order procedure from requiring that a revision letter follow every drawing and specification call out to simply indicate "Latest revision". According to them it is "What all the primes do". I fear this will get us into trouble come audit season.

I would like to see more opinions from the cove if possible on this matter as I have done quite a bit of research and come up with nothing but the clause from as9100 referenced above. I am told that the new SOP verbiage complies with the requirement.
Just because that is "what the primes do" doesn't make it right.
 
A

andygr

#6
For Boeing D1-44426 approved process houses
As a special processer you must know by way of flow down:
what revision level of the spec,
which division is the part being processed for ( Commercial, Defense, Rotocraft),
what aircraft the part will be used on.

Without this information you cannot process parts since you cannot properly determine which departures will apply.
This is addressed under the “Document D1-4426 - User Instructions & Processor Requirements"
http://active.boeing.com/doingbiz/d14426/UserInstProcReq.cfm

Here is the applicable para
6.6.4. Processor/Suppliers are required to adequately define and document prior to accepting an order, including but not limited to: specification, specification revision, Type, Class, Grade, program number, design authority, pre/post processing steps, as applicable.

To find out what the current status is for Boeing specs you can go to the links on the D1-4426 site right below the link for frequently asked questions.
http://www.boeingsuppliers.com/d14426/


This is a big issue and there will be requirements supplied by all of the Boeing special process groups around midyear to clearly identify what our special process houses working under D1-4426 must see on their PO's.
IF the required information is not getting to the process houses then the system reps at the upper food chain location that is not supplying the required info will be tasked to "fix" the condition.
IF you as the supplier can not show that you forced the issue to ge teh missing info and did not contact your process rep for help then you are at risk of loosing your approval.
 
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E

Eotfofyl

#7
By whom? As I already stated, in my assessment, such practice clearly violates the AS9100 requirement I copied in my previous post. If you read the (link removed) for that paragraph, it reads


If your customer (OEM?) practices that, assuming that they are also AS9100 certified (not all are :mg:), you can let their CB know of the discrepancy via a OASIS feedback loop.

According to AS9104/1, CB's will have to audit the purchasing process every year, adequacy of information in PO's will be scrutinized continually and, I am afraid your process will be found nonconforming.
By whom?

Upper management.

If your customer (OEM?)

Yes.

Thank you for your responses, my concerns have been validated. Unfortunately our as9100 has already taken place and our audit was... less than thorough. I will make another attempt to convince my leadership that they are incorrect with their decision as happy as it made the purchasing group.
 
E

Eotfofyl

#9
Quick update,
A recent audit found us non-compliant to 7.4.2. Upper management finally agreed to change things back to specifying the specific revision levels on purchase orders to sub tiers. But, not before I ask our SAI as9100 auditors. So i ask, and apparently this specific question is causing quite a bit of confusion but they have decided that indicating "latest revision" IS acceptable as long as you "[FONT=&quot]reference a website where the latest configuration can be downloaded". [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Obviously this cannot be accomplished as not all sub-tiers have access to customer websites.

Thoughts?
[/FONT]
 
A

andygr

#10
That is exactly right. If the supplier can not access the configuration how can they know if the have the latest? If it is available on line then latest rev on the PO is fine since if they check and if they find they do not have the latest they can request it.
What does your firm require from your customers to assure that you are building to the correct configuration?
 
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