AS9100 Rev. D - Question about 8.4.3 (k) - Supplier Certificates

jwdjmd

Starting to get Involved
#1
HI,

I am doing an internal audit of procurement and I have a question on 8.3.4.k, the need to implement a quality management system.

Our company requires external providers to implement a quality management system. However, once the supplier submits their certificate, it goes into their supplier file and no one follows up to ensure that the supplier's certification is maintained.

I would like to write it up as a nonconformity but I am unsure of which clause it should be written against. Is there a clause? Or do I just write it up as an opportunity for improvement (which will fall into the black hole of OFIs) to review supplier files and reach out to those for new certificates when the old expire?

The push back I will get will be that we have 100s of suppliers but not the resources to chase down expired certificates.

Thanks for all your help!
 
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Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#2
However, once the supplier submits their certificate, it goes into their supplier file and no one follows up to ensure that the supplier's certification is maintained.
What standard(s) are the suppliers required to be certified to? AS9100? ISO 9001?

If you require suppliers to be certified to AS9100 via the IAQG ICOP Scheme, they are listed in OASIS and OASIS allows you to set up tracking mechanisms for certified suppliers that would alert you if a certificate is suspended, revoked or expired.

For ISO 9001 certificates, there is no such thing.
 

howste

Thaumaturge
Super Moderator
#4
8.4.3k talks about your organization communicating its requirements to your suppliers. 8.4.1 says you need to "determine and apply criteria for the evaluation, selection..., and re-evaluation of external providers."

Do you know if your organization has a requirement for your suppliers to maintain their certifications? If so, that's the requirement you would write an NC against. If not, it may fall into the black hole you described.
 

Mike S.

Happy to be Alive
Trusted Information Resource
#5
Think about this carefully: what is your company’s true intent here?

Is it that they simply “implement a quality management system” which “can be” satisfied by an AS9100 or ISO90012 certification? That’s what you said here. Is that really what you want?

If I implemented a QMS that I say is compliant with (but not certified to) ISO9001, am I okay? By your words so far, I would say that I have not violated any of your requirements. Same if I implemented a QMS based on old MIL-I-45208A.

First you have to know what you want and clearly communicate that to your suppliers. If you want them to have, and maintain, an AS9100 or ISO9001 certified QMS then you need to clearly state that. Maybe in your flowdown require them to notify you if there is any change in their certified status. Maybe you will want to audit them occasionally and ask for a copy of their certificate on occasion. Etc.

Don’t write someone up if the requirement is not clear – unless you write yourself up for an unclear requirement! :cool:
 

jwdjmd

Starting to get Involved
#6
Ok, I did a little more digging based on your responses. Our Supplier Handbook states that "It is expected that suppliers maintain compliance to industry quality management system requirements (AS9100, ISO 9001, ISO 13485, TS16949)".

Does that help clarify my question?

Now since suppliers are asked to maintain a certification, wouldn't our company be on the hook to verify that they remain certified, and since no one here actually does it we have a nonconformity?

What I am trying to avoid is having our registrar ask for supplier files and then write us up when certifications are out of date. It seems like a a no brainer to me but then....

 

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#7
Ok, I did a little more digging based on your responses. Our Supplier Handbook states that "It is expected that suppliers maintain compliance to industry quality management system requirements (AS9100, ISO 9001, ISO 13485, TS16949)".

Does that help clarify my question?

Now since suppliers are asked to maintain a certification, wouldn't our company be on the hook to verify that they remain certified, and since no one here actually does it we have a nonconformity?

What I am trying to avoid is having our registrar ask for supplier files and then write us up when certifications are out of date. It seems like a a no brainer to me but then....

I'm not sure if this to the heart of the matter, but as a side note you would be nuts to require all of your suppliers to be certified.

First of all, you could paint yourself into the corner you have described. But most of all you would limit yourself from suppliers that can meet your needs that are not certified.

I have two clients that are getting aerospace plating work that are not certified because the NADCAP suppliers cannot provide the work needed and he can. The NADCAP suppliers can show that they followed the process, but the plating is not satisfactory.

Even if you prefer to use certified suppliers, NEVER close the door to other viable options.
 

Mike S.

Happy to be Alive
Trusted Information Resource
#8
You are using "compliance" and "certification" as though they mean the same thing, but they don't.

Again....think about this carefully: what is your company’s true intent here?
 

jwdjmd

Starting to get Involved
#9
You are absolutely correct. We ask them to maintain conformance not certify. My interpretation is definitely incorrect. Maintaining conformance is not a requirement for certification. :eek::eek:
 

Illek

Involved In Discussions
#10
If we have a supplier who is not certified but someone the customer needs us to use we perform risk analysis. Even if they are high risk we can still use them just note how we will mitigate the risks. Wish we hadn't set expiry dates to match the AS9100 cert dates. September is going to be a pain this year. :bonk:
 
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