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AS9100D 8.4.1.1 external providers question - Walmart, Home Depot, our lawn care team. etc.

Kokolita

Starting to get Involved
#1
Hi There.
Last week we had our Stage I audit for AS9100D. I was having a "discussion" (that left me with a headache) with the auditor on the following issues.....
With regards to Para 8.4.1.1, He stated a couple of things I don't agree with.
1) Our customers are also technically our suppliers and MUST be on our Register of external providers. (we are a heat treating company. We have hundreds and
hundreds of customers).
2) We have to have Walmart, Home Depot, our lawn care team, snow removal team, paper provider, etc. on our register of external providers.

Any help getting me to understand why these are required would be great. I thought only vendors associated with form, fit or function of the process should be on the list.

Thanks in advance!!
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#4
We know the caliber of third party assessors keeps going down due to the commoditization and trivialization mindset, which permeates the whole system certification sector, but one could hope that industry controlled schemes such as the IAQG ICOP would weed out most IQ-challenged people. Apparently not.
1) Our customers are also technically our suppliers and MUST be on our Register of external providers. (we are a heat treating company. We have hundreds and hundreds of customers).
While in some cases customers can also be suppliers, in your case, that is NOT the issue. The products you receive from your customers must be handled, managed and processed in accordance with AS9100 D 8.5.3 - Property belonging to customers or external providers.

2) We have to have Walmart, Home Depot, our lawn care team, snow removal team, paper provider, etc. on our register of external providers.
These "external providers" have no impact on your product conformity, thus they are outside the scope of 8.4

Is this auditor brand new? Normally they don't last long when they are demonstrably common sense-less.

Stage 1 audits are not supposed to report nonconformities, but identify areas of concern to readiness for stage 2. Did the auditor provide you with the report from the Stage 1 audit? If so, demand a copy and let us know if these issues were formally reported. You should be concerned that this same auditor leads your stage 2 assessment. S/he clearly has some learning to do.
 

Kokolita

Starting to get Involved
#5
Hi Sidney,
This gentleman has been an auditor for 20 years. He identified areas of concern and they are listed in OASIS. We decided not to address this issue of concern and if he writes us up in our Stage II we will simply fight the Non-Conformance.

Also, our company has been in business for 30+ years and we have many existing forms. All have a title, Form Number and Rev Date. He stated that we had to have an author as well because the spec states: 7.5.2.a "Identification and description (e.g., a title, date, author or reference number". He said we need to have all of the "e.g. items". I argued the point and had my boss actually look up the definition of "e.g." online so he can understand that "e.g." means basically "for example". He has me more confused after our Stage I than I was before! LOL
 

Ed Panek

VP QA RA Small Med Dev Company FDA and ISO13485:16
Trusted
#6
If their performance could impact you meeting your product or service requirements only.
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#7
Hi Sidney,
This gentleman has been an auditor for 20 years. He identified areas of concern and they are listed in OASIS. We decided not to address this issue of concern and if he writes us up in our Stage II we will simply fight the Non-Conformance.
Wow. This has me even more surprised; an "experienced" auditor who believes a heat treating processor has to treat customers as suppliers. Doesn't he even realize the implications of such expectation? It is hugely concerning that we would have an auditor so misguided working in the IAQG ICOP Scheme.

I understand that you don't want to make waves at this time and want to go through the stage 2 audit successfully, but this gentleman is clearly spreading misinformation and damaging the whole concept of value added 3rd party audits in the supply chain. Utter nonsense.

Good luck. And keep us posted.
 

Kokolita

Starting to get Involved
#9
We considered adding them just to appease him but realized that if we did it now, we'd have to continue to do it so I decided we should nip it in the bud initially and simply NOT add them. He stated that he has customers hand him their Supplier List and it's about 200 pages long. UGH. I'll keep you posted. Stage II in August.
 

Eredhel

Quality Manager
#10
Absolutely, you'll wind up with a bunch of stuff that doesn't need to be done and causes headaches. And if it becomes a thing you'll be able to get actual NC language that will point to where he's wrong. Our shredder service has zero impact on our product conformity in the context of AS9100.
 
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